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December 14

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Category:High streets in the United Kingdom to Category:Shopping streets in the United Kingdom

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was rename -- Rick Block (talk) 17:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A high street is defined it that article as "the primary business street of towns or cities in the United Kingdom", but they are virtually always thought of in their role as shopping streets. Some of the streets currently in this category do not meet this definition, eg Neal Street, or even Regent Street (it is less important than Oxford Street). It would be better to retitle this after a high street's main function. There are plenty more streets which could then be added, and there would be less classification problems (is it the most important or not?).

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Category:Ships involved in international incidents to Category:International maritime incidents

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The result of the debate was rename -- Rick Block (talk) 17:03, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Most articles are about the incidents, ship articles are present when the name is synonymous with the incident. To put all ships involved in international incidents in the category would be unnecessarily broad (most ships of any note are of note because of their involvement in international incidents of some sort). Joshbaumgartner 20:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Portuguese naval ships to Category:Naval ships of Portugal

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The result of the debate was rename -- Rick Block (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Per policy and prior CfD. Joshbaumgartner 19:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Jerusalem mosques to category:Mosques in Jerusalem

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The result of the debate was rename -- Rick Block (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Jerusalem is a city rather than a sect. Rename to the usual form category:Mosques in Jerusalem in line with category:Mosques in Israel. Rhollenton 19:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Jerusalem synagogues to category:Synagogues in Jerusalem

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The result of the debate was rename -- Rick Block (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Jerusalem is a city rather than a sect. Rename to the usual form category:Synagogues in Jerusalem in line with category:Synagogues in Israel. Rhollenton 19:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Hebrew Bible/Tanakh

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The result of the debate was rename -- Rick Block (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Cinema of England and Category:Cinema of Scotland

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The result of the debate was no consensus (keep) -- Rick Block (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Merge back into Category: Cinema of the United Kingdom. There really isn't such a thing as a separate "Cinema of England" or "Cinema of Scotland" and there aren't separate English and Scottish film industries. The industry in Britain has only ever been a UK-wide one, its not regionally based. Trying to sub-divide it in this way is a really bad idea. If we want to be precise, most Scottish-set films are actually usually either American or English. Famous "Scottish" films like Whisky Galore! are usually "English" films made on location in Scotland. JW 15:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Category:Cinema of England and Category:Cinema of Scotland already are subcategories of Category: Cinema of the United Kingdom. --Mais oui! 13:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Keep sorry, didn't realise! Camillustalk|contribs 13:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep; there is a small Gaelic cinema community. If this was to be rejected it would have to be on the grounds of being non-notable, not non-existant. Nach0king 14:14, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge; I note with interest the above comment regarding a gaelic cinema community - something i (and im a native speaker of the language) have never encountered. If it exists it is pretty far from notable.
    • Not trying to be cheeky, but try typing 'gaelic film' into Google. Nach0king 18:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: articles about people that are unlikely to be known outside their social and occupational circles may be condemned as "non-notable" for Wikipedia purposes, but "non-notable" is not a synonym for "little-known". If there is a Gaelic cinema industry that has got so far as producing films that have been shown in public or on TV, I would personally believe that it is highly notable as far as the question of inclusion in Wikipedia is concerned.Palmiro | Talk 03:00, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Nobody is saying they shouldn't be included as articles. We are talking about categories. There would be nothing wrong with an article on Gaelic language cinema, if it exists, or even a category for Gaelic films. But Cinema of England and Cinema of Scotland are being imposed to separate English and Scottish actors, films and directors as if they are part of a separate culture and industry, which they aren't. JW 10:25, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • Then surely that's just incorrect usage. I agree that if, say, you class Braveheart as a Scottish movie merely to say "oh, look, this is Scottish" then that's entirely inappropriate. But it seems to be that deleting the categories because people are misusing them is akin to deleting Wikipedia because people misuse it. Let these categories continue and the small Gaelic and Scottish film community information sets will find their way onto these pages. In the meantime, people adding inappropriate films (e.g. British productions) will have their work edited out. Sounds about right? Nach0king 12:08, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • Scottish films are British productions. The problem with the categories is that they are making a claim that England and Scotland have separate film industries and cinematic identities without offering anything to back this up. It's not a view that would be supported by anyone with any knowledge of the subject. JW 22:47, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
            • You're just repeating yourself. I've already said that, if British films (which, as you say, comprise the vast majority of films made on these islands) are being split apart into English and Scottish merely to suit the views of a few people, then this is a misuse of the category and can be reverted. This does not make the category useless. This does not remove the existence of an (admittedly tiny) industry of filmmaking in Scotland. Nach0king 13:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, serves a useful purpose in containing the English and Scottish directors, actors etc sub-cats. I'm less sure about Category:Scottish films though. As an example of potential confusion, where would I Know Where I'm Going! go? Leithp (talk) 20:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge English categories should be restricted to places, buildings people and little else. Osomec 14:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Final Fantasy II characters

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The result of the debate was delete -- Rick Block (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Catagory for pages that have merged together in to one page. Redundant. Speedy Delete if possible. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 14:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:French military history

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The result of the debate was merge/delete -- Rick Block (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

wrong naming convention, moved contents to Category:Military history of France -- Ze miguel 13:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Film and TV Logo Descriptions to Category:Film and TV logo descriptions

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The result of the debate was rename to Category:Film and television logo descriptions -- Rick Block (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if the wording is compliant with our naming conventions, but the capitalization most certainly is not. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 12:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Anti-abortion

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The result of the debate was delete -- Rick Block (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is already covered by Category:Pro-choice celebrities . -- Fplay 11:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Angelenos

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The result of the debate was merge/redirect -- Rick Block (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is already covered by Category:People from Los Angeles . -- Fplay 11:04, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Terrorism Categories

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The result of the debate was keep -- Rick Block (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If one does a search for terrorism related categories then one finds many useles categories. (eg. Terrorists by nationaliti, terrorists by ...) They should all be deleted. Terrorism can be considered POV unless one declares himself as terrorist.

Search Results

helohe (talk) 10:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep I know the debate on terrorism is complex. I also know any "terrorist" category (whether state terrorism, state-sponsored or "independant" terrorism - if such is possible!) renders possible hasty generalizations. Hence, the claim that "terrorism" is POV and should therefore be removed. If this category is deleted, so should be the article (why would the category be POV and the article NPOV???). However, lots of things in Wikipedia are POV and are not removed (see Category: Neo-Nazi music for example: I personally think such a category is POV and makes it easy for Nazis to spam their external links and promote their hate bands.) NPOV is an ideal of objectivity, followed by modern social sciences: everybody knows that it is difficult to define (this doesn't stop us from using this word!). Terrorism is, like all political issues, POV. Having a Nazi category (not only neo-nazi music, which seem to have been created to promote those bands) on Wikipedia forces us to impede any historical revisionism attempts, in order to enforce a NPOV. The same should be done with "terrorism" or "state terrorism". However, nobody forbids speaking about political issues on Wikipedia. "State terrorism" is a really common definition. The US Department of State has an official list of state-sponsored terrorists and "rogue states" which may participate in terrorist activities. This list is interesting (even though POV), and is better defined in a "state terrorism" category than a more general "terrorism" category. Terrorism can (must) be studied as a historical subject (i would go so far as philosophical, as it concerns the use of violence, which has been legitimized by some philosophers, among whom Hegel). If you do study terrorism, you will see that almost all terrorist groups are sponsored by state. You will also find out some famous examples of state terrorism on which a NPOV can agree, such as operation Condor, the Great purge or Pol Pot's regime. Denying this is historical revisionism. I'm sure a debate on whether such or such entry enters this category is legitimate, but the category in itself is NPOV. Because of the War on terror, terrorism is today a really important issue. Ignorance - and ignoring this in Wikipedia - only helps fanatics. Kaliz 14:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as stated. Sherurcij (talk) (bounties)
  • Keep This keeps coming up. The arguments for deletion don't get more convincing. Carina22 17:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. Terrorism is a very important topic and should not be censored. Mirror Vax 01:09, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is not censorship as the article itself will not be deleted as the word itself is not POV. But categorising people into terrorists is POV. So the categories should be at least renamed to something like "People listed as terrorists by the US govenment". helohe (talk) 07:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • If terrorism exists - and it does - there must be terrorists. Can't have one without the other. I trust Wikipedia's editors more than the US government to be an unbiased judge of who is a terrorist. Mirror Vax 21:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Terrorists

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus (so keep) -- Rick Block (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Terrorism is POV. For one thy'r terrorists for the other they are freedom fighters. Else Bush and Sharon had to be added to this category too for example. One could only add people that declare theyr self as terrorists. helohe (talk) 10:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep The debate on terrorism is complex. I agree that any "terrorist" category (whether state terrorism, state-sponsored or "independant" terrorism - if such is possible!) renders possible hasty generalizations. Hence, the claim that "terrorism" is POV and should therefore be removed. If this category is deleted, so should be the article (why would the category be POV and the article NPOV???). However, lots of things in Wikipedia are POV and are not removed (see Category: Neo-Nazi music for example: I personally think such a category is POV and makes it easy for Nazis to spam their external links and promote their hate bands.) NPOV is an ideal of objectivity, followed by modern social sciences: everybody knows that it is difficult to define (this doesn't stop us from using this word!). Terrorism is, like all political issues, POV. Having a Nazi category (not only neo-nazi music, which seem to have been created to promote those bands) on Wikipedia forces us to impede any historical revisionism attempts, in order to enforce a NPOV. The same should be done with "terrorism" or "state terrorism". However, nobody forbids speaking about political issues on Wikipedia. "State terrorism" is a really common definition. The US Department of State has an official list of state-sponsored terrorists and "rogue states" which may participate in terrorist activities. This list is interesting (even though POV), and is better defined in a "state terrorism" category than a more general "terrorism" category. Terrorism can (must) be studied as a historical subject (i would go so far as philosophical, as it concerns the use of violence, which has been legitimized by some philosophers, among whom Hegel). If you do study terrorism, you will see that almost all terrorist groups are sponsored by state. You will also find out some famous examples of state terrorism on which a NPOV can agree, such as operation Condor, the Great purge or Pol Pot's regime. Denying this is historical revisionism. I'm sure a debate on whether such or such entry enters this category is legitimate, but the category in itself is NPOV. Because of the War on terror, terrorism is today a really important issue. Ignorance - and ignoring this in Wikipedia - only helps fanatics. Kaliz 14:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC) (excuse the hasty writing)[reply]


Keep - terrorism has a relatively narrow definition within Wikipedia, and individual's status on a list of terrorist is something to argue on Talk:George Bush or Talk:Osama bin Laden, not to claim than an entire category should be deleted. Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 14:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]


This debate should be contiuned in the topic just above this one to avoid confusion and dupplication. helohe (talk) 15:01, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I think the whole categorisation scheme needs to be reconsidered, after all a group is not a terrorist. Something along the lines of proscribed groups in foo for organisations, and persons found guilty of terrorism in foo for individuals, both which can be stated factually and neutrally --TimPope 10:59, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I never followed it up at the time, but I have now been asked to revisit the idea by Palmiro so I am making the suggestion again, and hope that it might bear some fruit. --TimPope 09:59, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - There is an objective definition of terrorism -- something along the lines of "the use of violence against civilian populations for political purposes" -- and if there were any prospect of this being applied consistently then we could use it. However, it's clear that it won't be applied to many cases where it might be warranted, and this is where the POV problem comes in. The bombing of Dresden, for example, fits the definition, but does anybody really think this category could be applied to Bomber Harris, Winston Churchill or even Royal Air Force without interminable edit wars and associated grief? --Ryano 19:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom.--Mais oui! 20:23, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Definition is fine, it just needs to be enforced. Osomec 14:07, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep This perennial debate always seems to bring the deletionists out of the woodwork. They've been vanquished consistently before and they'll have to scurry back into their hidey holes this time too. Terrorism and terrorists are ideologies and ideologues we have to confront and ultimately to defeat. We can do these things by initially identifying and categorizing them!Phase1 22:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It's an ideology? Are you serious? What are its tenets? What are its objectives? Palmiro | Talk 03:00, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
That argument may work if there is one consistent definition for what is conventional tactics. Remember, tactics from past centuries may no longer be considered conventional in one part of the world, yet are still "conventional" in others. Pepsidrinka 12:22, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as per nom. Pepsidrinka 12:22, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Terrorism has a technical definition, it may be misused in common parlance, but it means something. It's the act or threats of violence against civilians for the purpose of creating a sense of terror for political gain. Freedom fighters can be terrorist or not. They simply aren't the same. We have a page on terrorism, no one has slapped a POV tag on that last I checked. People who take journalists and cut their heads off and distribute the tapes are terrorists... there can be no intelligent discussion to suggest otherwise. -- Jbamb 00:52, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Elf schools

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The result of the debate was delete -- Rick Block (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Elf schools. Elf schools. Sheesh. I think "small without potential for growth" kind of describes this category, unless I'm really out of the loop. Delete. Herostratus 08:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]


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Category:Controversial convictions to Category:Disputed convictions

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The result of the debate was merge/redirect -- Rick Block (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

These two categories seem to cover the same ground, and Disputed convictions is older and bigger. Merge? --PHenry 08:34, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Sesame Street muppet characters to Category:Sesame Street Muppet characters

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The result of the debate was rename -- Rick Block (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Fixing capitalization of "Muppet". tregoweth 02:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Infobox templates

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The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 15:27, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing coherently similar about these templates that they deserve to be in a category. Also fails Wikipedia category standard by failing to include the word "wikipedia". (More of these odd categories can be found at Category:Wikipedia templates.) -- Netoholic @ 02:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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