Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways

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WT:UKRAIL

Photos of the Redhill–Tonbridge line

Hi,
I’ve recently been doing some work on the Redhill–Tonbridge line. I have struggled a little to find good photos to illustrate the article and I wondered if anyone had any pictures of the line in their own collections, that they might be willing to upload to Commons? It would be great to have some photos of passenger and goods trains from before 2008 (including steam, diesel and electric locomotives/multiple units). I’d also be very grateful for any pictures of the station buildings and signal boxes at Nutfield, Godstone, Edenbridge and Penshurst.
Thanks and best wishes, Mertbiol (talk) 15:14, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's a thread for this at Talk:Redhill–Tonbridge line#Request for photos. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:37, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Machynlleth Town railway station

I've proposed renaming Machynlleth Town railway station. Thoughts on the talk page would be welcome. — Voice of Clam (talk) 08:35, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alconbury Weald station

When would you say would be the best time to create an article on this station? I have information about when Alconbury Weald new development was built and when the station was roughly first proposed, as well as news articles saying consideration may be applied after the new election (obviously since happened, but not sure about the application). The station is to be located between Huntingdon and Peterborough, probably served only by GTR. Difficultly north (talk) Time, department skies 13:33, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It certainly has widespread coverage from reliable sources, but at the moment I think it only merits mention in some other article, e.g. at List of proposed railway stations in England#List_of_proposed_stations_in_East_of_England and a more expanded mention at Alconbury Weald. I'd say when it gets to the point where concrete plans are submitted for approval it might be worthy of its own article. If plans get approved then it's definitely worthy. As an aside I'm staying 10 miles away from there for the next week or so. 10mmsocket (talk) 14:35, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it could also be mentioned in the old Abbots Ripton article which isn't far from the probable site. Difficultly north (talk) Time, department skies 14:42, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notability of UK stations

There is a conversation about the notability of UK stations ongoing at Wikipedia talk:Notability. Garuda3 (talk) 16:50, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For "conversation", read "full-blown thirty-day formal WP:RFC". With everybody who doesn't give a tinker's cuss for railways, least of all British ones, getting involved. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From the discussion at the RFC, the question arises "Would this WP benefit from having a page similar to WP:SHIPS/R?" Mjroots (talk) 18:29, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re the above, is Wikipedia:WikiProject UK Railways/Sources supposed to be our version of SHIPS/R? Mjroots (talk) 18:32, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting I never saw that before. Would be great to expand it. I'll have a dig for appropriate online sources. 10mmsocket (talk) 18:37, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mjroots – that was my intention when I started adding to it yesterday with books from my collection. Ideally, if other editors could add their own books/sources, it would become a go-to reference for anybody seeking to expand a station article. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 18:41, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On mobile so can't do much copy/pasting but I have a fair few books that might be helpful, though fewer that are about stations specifically. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:41, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've created a shortcut WP:UKT/S. Mjroots (talk) 07:57, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the UK-related Middleton Press books I own to the page. Please add those you own. If already listed just add your name to the existing entry. Mjroots (talk) 08:27, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ashley Down station

Ashley Down railway station needs adding to {{Bristol railway map}}. It is between Filton Abbey Wood and Stapleton Road, but there are two closed stations between them, so I am unsure exactly where it fits in. Mjroots (talk) 09:30, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the cooridnates in the articles, Ashley Down is just north of Ashley Hill so should be between there and Horfield on the diagram. I'll leave making the edit to someone who understands the RDT syntax Thryduulf (talk) 11:29, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Thryduulf: - Done. Mjroots (talk) 14:08, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't Ashley Down station on the same site as Ashley Hill (literally the same old platforms being dug out and refurbished). It's not in the location that recent road-centric Bristolians would generally think of as 'Ashley Down'. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:34, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the coords in our Ashley Hill railway station and Ashley Down railway station articles are correct, the new station is a little (1.62 arcseconds, or about 50 metres) to the north of the old. But it's very close: 50 metres is about two coach lengths, so there is probably an overlap of the respective platform ends, if not the bulk of the platforms. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:14, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The page for the new Ashley Down station says that in January 2018, it was revealed that plans had been revived to reopen the station... A reference in the MetroWest article clearly states that it is built on the same site.[1]

50 metres is shorter than the new platforms. It is also closer than Warren Halt was to its 1912 replacement at Dawlish Warren, and they are both covered by a single article.

So, all in all, they should be a single icon on the railway map and the two articles should be merged. Geof Sheppard (talk) 16:34, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree 100% with Geof. If I remember correctly, the access to the new station will be the same as for the old station. Also worth noting that the article for the new station is essentially a WP:CONTENT FORK from the old one by Mattdaviesfsic last year after removing the redirect to the older station. Lamberhurst (talk) 15:53, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question about categories

I notice that The Little Chinese Engine (talk · contribs) is modifying a number of UK train articles and changing the category "Locomotives introduced in YYYY" to a different date. What is the accepted convention? He/she is using the date that manufacturing started, as opposed to the date the first unit was delivered, or the date the first unit started testing, or the first unit entered service? IMO it should be one of the latter three not the one they're all being changed to. Thoughts? Should the changes be reverted? 10mmsocket (talk) 17:59, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Courtesy ping @The Little Chinese Engine as we're talking about you here. 10mmsocket (talk) 17:59, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OTTOMH I'd expect "introduced" to be the date the first example entered revenue service. I don't immediately recall any discussions about this though. Thryduulf (talk) 18:09, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What Thryduulf said. For steam locomotives, most books give only one date, but it is not always easy to obtain a date that is consistent between different railway companies; two different books may give two different kinds of event as the date when the loco was new, and some even give dates without stating exactly what event is being dated. Where the kind of event is stated, I have seen the following:

Physically completed, except for painting
Painting completed
Left the manufacturer's premises
Arrived on the customer's tracks
Testing completed
Entered revenue-earning service (which may be described as "entered traffic")
Date that payment was completed / date that the loco was added to stock (i.e. added to the asset register)

These events did not necessarily occur in that order: some railways only paid for locomotives once a "trial mileage" had been attained, and this would be accumulated in normal service, not on dedicated test runs. Some split the painting stage - painting with primer coats, then testing out on the line, then painting with finishing coats. Timescales could be quite lengthy, especially with modern trains that are stuffed with electronics. For example, London Underground 1995 Tube Stock began delivery in December 1995, testing began in early 1997 but the first train entered service in June 1998, so this for me would be a 1998 introduction. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:23, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I agree. To me, introduction means the day it entered revenue service. 10mmsocket (talk) 21:34, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Eryholme–Richmond branch line#Requested move 13 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Eryholme–Richmond branch line#Requested move 13 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 04:03, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Joint railways after grouping

Over on wikidata I have been tagging items that are instances of ELR railway line section (Q113990375) with operator (P137) statements to indicate the companies most responsible for them.

I have added pre-grouping info for August 1921 based on values drawn from the Signalling Record Society line data (Q127932823) pages, and extended that to the grouping era for companies that exclusively became part of one of the big four.

But what would be most appropriate for sections operated by joint railways in 1921 -- eg the ones returned by this query tinyurl.com/mwpuvswb -- for joint railways that were 'inherited' by more than one of the 1923 Big Four ?

Did those joint railways continue to maintain a visible meaningful identity and presence? Or would it be more appropriate to mark such sections with eg operator (P137) = London, Midland and Scottish Railway (Q629139) and London and North Eastern Railway (Q1092839), perhaps with a qualifer like object of statement has role (P3831) = "joint owner" between 1923 and 1947. What would be most appropriate, accurate, and/or most useful ?

Thanks for any advice or thoughts.

(PS results of the query don't exactly match the data at pages like List of constituents of the London and North Eastern Railway, because (i) it's still work in progress; and (ii) the whole length of the modern ELR section has been included in the total mileage even if only a portion was actually operated by the joint company.) Jheald (talk) 14:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Only one joint railway - the Portpatrick and Wigtownshire Joint Railway - was explicitly named in the Railways Act 1921, and it was to be grouped into the LMS - not surprising, as all of its pre-group co-owners were LMS constituents. For the other joint railways, two situations emerged straight away:

All of the pre-group co-owners were constituents of the same post-group railway (e.g. the Great Northern and Great Eastern Joint Railway): the joint railway was implicitly grouped along with its co-owners
The pre-group co-owners became constituents of different post-group railways, so the joint railway continued to exist, albeit with new co-owners

For situation (2), the co-owners might agree to retain the pre-group name (e.g. the Midland and Great Northern Joint Railway), or might decide that the joint line could be better administered if it was included with other joint lines under a new blanket title (e.g. the Halesowen Railway, the Shrewsbury and Hereford Railway and the Shrewsbury and Wellington Joint Railway all became part of the London, Midland and Scottish and Great Western Railways Joint Committee - althogh the Severn and Wye Railway, which had the same co-owners, did not)

The Transport Act 1947 avoided these problems by explicitly naming all the joint railways, even those where all co-owners were to become part of British Railways alone.

An examination of List of constituents of British Railways#Joint railways will show the ultimate situation. Afrer nationalisation, a few railways remained jointly-owned by British Railways and London Transport (e.g. the Metropolitan and Great Central Joint Railway), but these were sorted out by the end of 1949, mostly by splitting the line into two, and assigning one portion to BR, the other to LT. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:17, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Redrose64: Thanks, that's a very useful start. A very useful checklist to see what joint railways still existing in 1947 I ought to be aware of.

So, apart from the London, Midland and Scottish and Great Western Railways Joint Committee (which seems to be the most obvious one of the 'Constituents of BR' page, are you aware of any other 'new' joint management organisations that existing joint railways got pooled into? Jheald (talk) 20:17, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that our list at List of constituents of British Railways#Joint railways isn't entirely complete. The definitive list is the one in the original text of the 1947 Act, which may be found at the Third Schedule to the 1947 Act. This includes a catch-all clause Any other body whose members consist wholly of, or of representatives of, two or more of the above mentioned bodies., something lacking from the 1921 Act. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:26, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]