User talk:Duae Quartunciae

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for talking the time to comment at the Wikiquette page and elsewhere. It is always a bit scary when complaints get made, but I find it fascinating that total strangers, spread throughout the world, take the time to look into things carefully and then opine. Thanks again. --Slp1 (talk) 00:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome. And it is fascinating. Frankly, I think we are a little bit voyeuristic. The whole wikipedia project is fascinating; and the way so many people work together on it; including some rather odd folks. Something like wikiquette alerts helps manage it a bit, I guess. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 00:20, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alan (talk) 01:41, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

May I ask you to explai what is it, or it, or it? It seems to me that Alaska is also in Asia (and belonged to Russia no so far away). May be, we must move it? What are we doing: trying to find a consensus or playing provocative games? Thanx! --Dimitree 22:53, 4 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimitree (talk • contribs)

We are trying to find a consensus, of course. You MUST stop taking all dispute over this as personal. These unwarranted insinuations of attack or game playing or provocation at disruptive of the project. Please stop worrying about motives of other editors and stick to the content, on the assumption that we are all working in good faith. Take all actual substantive discussion to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Airlines#Regions for airports. Thanks.

Also, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 23:05, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I asked a question. Would u please answer? It seems to me there is only one truth: smone can do whatever he wants inspite it is evidently silly. Smone must shut up and follow mainstream. Ok. The question remains: if it is correct to put Russian Federation in Asia unless there is no any consensus? May I hope to hear from you soon. Thanx! P.S.: I put 4 tildas from the very begining, but it does not work. Don't know why... --Dimitree 23:47, 4 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimitree (talk • contribs)

I answered the question, on what we are are trying to... we are trying to find a consensus. I also pointed you to the proper place for further discussion of the specifics of geographical location.

Ok.

Your rephrased question is a bit unclear, but you appear to be asking what to do if there is no consensus. If there is no consensus, then the correct thing to do in wikipedia is work towards consensus. The most important considerations for that, by far, are to assume good faith of other editors and keep your cool. The worst thing to do is make your own personal decision on what is "correct", and then edit war all over the place to maintain your choice, whatever it might be. You should leave the content of the article alone, and focus on obtaining the consensus. To do that, you have to listen to others, and be willing to change your mind if need be. See Wikipedia Dispute Resolution. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 00:03, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I did not do anything unless there is no consensus. My opponent - User:Jasepl - does. He just violates established rules. Examples are here, here, here and so on. So I need an explanation: if there are this Template:Airline destinations and thatUnited Nations World Macro regions and components, why User:Jasepl is defigurating the data? That is all. Nothing else... --Dimitree 00:35, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to help with the signing of posts over at your talk page. Hold on, I think we'll be able to fix it. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 00:03, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

May I ask you not to teach me what should I do and what should not? Teach yourself, please. And such kind of posts "Dimitree, please drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass" put on your page, please. I'm enough educated to understand what is going on here. Except you, there are many others Georges W. Bushes with his "export of democracy"... Thanx! --Dimitree (talk) 13:07, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No. You called a wikiquette alert, and you have asked for help. I mean no offense but you badly need it. You are flatly wrong about about trying to tell ME directly above about so-called "established rules", and you are not following the established wikipedia guidelines yourself.

Jasepl has removed himself from the debate. You should not continue to bait him. That comment about dropping the stick is a standard comment in wikipedia for just the kind of problem, and you should read the link associated with the comment. Here it is again: WP:STICK.

This whole debate would go much better if you were willing to learn about more about these kinds of guidelines. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 13:16, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your intervention and your efforts. You correctly concluded that I have withrawn from the debate.

Dimitree's dogged refusal to even read any of the explanations by others just makes the whole thing too tedious to be worthwhile. His constant screams of the English-speaking world being on a Russia-bashing binge doesn't help either. Besides (and I don't meen this in a bad way) - I don't understand most of what he writes anyway. All colleague this, and comrade that. This is the Engligh language Wikipedia, isn't it?

All I will suggest is that don't go 100% by the UN definitions (they change) or by group membership. I saw there was a suggestion to include Turkey in Europe because it is potentially an EU member. So is Armenia, by the way. Will Armenia suddenly move to Europe if and when it becomes an EU member? Tomorrow Kazakhstan might decide to join the Southwest Pacific La-La Union. Will Morocco then cease being an African countty?

Besides, if 3% of its territory being located in Europe makes Turkey European, then why not Azerbaijan and Georgia? More than 3% of their territory is located in Europe after all.

Physical location is something that won't change - not for several millenia in any case. Seeing how that's one constant, and that Europe's land borders are the Urals to the east and the Caucasus to the South, it's best to work with those immutable factors.

As all of the related country and continent articles, as well as a simple glance at a physical map tell us:

• Armenia and Cyprus are 100% in Asia
• 97% of Turkey is in Asia
• Over 50% of Russia is in Asia (ie: East of the Urals)
• More than 3% of Azerbaijan and Georgia are in Europe (ie: North of the Caucasus)

Thanks, again. Jasepl (talk) 09:45, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, glad to help. I'm going to stick with it for a while, although I'm striving to live up to the high ideals of don't-give-a-fuckism. :-)

If you twist my arm, I'll confess that I don't actually share your particular view of the best solution. I personally think that the division between Asia and Europe is mainly political; not geographical at all. It is the actual choice of certain borders that is mutable. The boundaries you list are widely used, but not universal. They are, in effect, a consensus position -- and consensus is mutable. As far as wikipedia is concerned, I'd stick with what has been the norm now, in most articles, for quite some time, as far as I can tell.

Russia definitely belongs in Europe, because all the largest centers are in the West, and the East is far less populated and developed. There's no way Asia can possibly work as a consensus for Russia, and that's what matters in wikipedia. Turkey is more interesting; most of the airline destination lists put it in Europe, and that's where the major political links go. For airlines, I think that traffic should carry a lot of weight, and with the strong political ties from Turkey to Europe, this carries a lot of weight. It's been the normal position within the airlines project now for a long time, as far as I can tell. Cyprus belongs in Europe politically, and again this is more important, in my view. Being actually an island in the Mediterranean, the geographical argument is particularly weak IMO. Proximity does suggest Asia -- but more particularly it suggests Cyprus and Turkey belong in the same continent. I tend to think putting them both in Europe is best; and it is also the prevailing norm in so far as a norm exists.

I am looking at using some tools to help identify inconsistencies across destination lists. This also helps identify what the effective consensus is at present, which seems to be as I've indicated above. (I think.)

But hey. I'm going to be interested to see if anyone else speaks up. I've refrained from saying any of this on the discussion, in line with the solemn teachings of DGAF. Be well, and keep up the good work. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 10:22, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Whould you please have a look at any map and see that: from the Kaspian Sea (moving to the West), Azerbaijan goes first, Armenia goes second which means that Azerbaijan (moving to the West from the Kaspian) is more distant from Europe. Moreover, land boundary of Europe and Asia is Northern Caucas Mountains. So all three countries (Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia) are below this boundary. So they are Southern Caucas countries and they are in Asia. Northern Caucas belongs to Russia (to its european part)... As for Turkey: only 3 % of Turkish territory is in Europe (Istanbul), 97% - in Asia. Cyprus is on an Asian tectonic platform. So Cyprus is in Asia (in the Middle East). Geography remains relevant. But politics is irrelevant... Thanx! --Dimitree (talk) 01:36, 8 November 2009 (UTC) P.S.: you may delete my post as you usually do when smth does not correspond to your conceptions...[reply]

Dimitree, I have not ever deleted your posts or comments, and have no intention of starting to do any such thing. If you think otherwise you may provide a dif.

You are merely repeating your view above, which I understand. This view is not the only view around. Some time I may comment further on the boundary between Europe and Asia in the Caucasus region, as there have been many divisions proposed over the years by different authorities, based on geography. However, I do not have a big stake in this. I am mainly here to try and help editors resolve a dispute. My conception is not important, and I have not ever removed anything in these debates because of a different conception of what the solution should be.

My only concern with this issue is to help editors work together better. I am concerned with issues such as assuming good faith, civility, and edit warring, for all participants, in the hope that you can all work together better. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 02:17, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

U r right: u r trying to help editor (not editors) supporting User:Jasepl. It is not objective and it is evident (I do not even talk about your endless and useless notations to me). As for deletion: here and here. That is all. There is always only one truth regardless the question we are talking. There are no 2 or 3 truths, because it is already a question of double standards. That is all. Nothing personal... --Dimitree (talk) 16:47, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dimitree, I think you have misunderstood both those edits. Neither one removes anything of yours, and neither one removes anything to do with airline destinations.

• The first link you give is to an edit in which I deleted a personal attack by a well known sock puppet who is using multiple IP addresses. Such edits tend to be removed on sight by anyone, and the IP gets blocked if it continues to be a source of edits. Note that this user is leaving similar one line personal attacks on many different talk pages with closely related range of IP addresses. Removing such attacks is normal; it has nothing particular to do with you. Check the relevant talk page: User talk:203.76.185.35. The IP has been blocked, but not by me.
• The second link is to an edit of YOURS, not mine. I have never moved any country between continents at any time in these discussions. My edit was simply to fix a problem with indentation. Here my own actual edit is here. LOOK at it for heaven's sake. All it does is line up the countries to a common indentation level, because the indentation got mixed up at some point. I moved nothing; and I have not taken any part in the edit wars on these articles.

I repeat; I have no stake in the content. I am concerned only with helping ALL editors engage the topic with appropriate civility and good faith, and without edit warring. I have certainly not tried to modify articles in favour of one side OR the other. That's the honest truth. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 03:02, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I see. Thank you. --Dimitree (talk) 22:05, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Glad we are on the same page again! —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 22:08, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please see my appeal at the noticeboard. I was known as MoonHoaxBat, but for abusing (i.e. appealing) on my talk page, I had no way to find out how to appeal to ArbCom. I would appreciate it if you could see the noticeboard. I am notifying you because I am not trying to slip something past the community.--FredUnavailable (talk) 18:13, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re: your post on the noticeboard. I am willing to not file a complaint against Ratel. I can understand your position on this. I found his comments offensive, but I trust that someone else will take up getting them removed. I don't need to get involved. I also consent to any kind of check you need to do on whether I am RJ11 of years past. Thanks,--FredUnavailable (talk) 22:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for signing the Dougmac7 comment; appreciate it.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 16:49, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The changes are [1].

Please look at [2] and Wikipedia:Don't revert due to "no consensus".174.3.111.148 (talk) 06:22, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do assume you are working in good faith, and I have not reverted anything of yours so far, for any reason at all. So this is an odd comment for you to be making.

On the other hand, I do disagree with what you are doing, and how you are doing it; as has every single other editor who has seen it as far as I can tell. I have explained the problem as I see it in the talk pages, at this link you have provided just above. That is where you should be taking this discussion; not here please. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 07:46, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is your uncomfortability with my reporting?174.3.111.148 (talk) 08:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, there are many aspects of this that concern me somewhat, but we don't need to talk about it here, please. I do assume your good faith, and I have not as yet reverted anything you have added to wikipedia. I've commented on matters relating to your proposals in the appropriate general discussion pages, as you have also. That's the right place this discussion. That is where we focus on the substance and not on individual editors or motives, and also where others impacted may be involved more naturally. OK? It's best not to carry on a dispute over too many different pages. Best wishes —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont)

I just read your post on Wikipedia talk:When to use tables. Actually, I appreciate and thank you for linking those wikipediaspace pages. I had no idea they existed, (except for the policy page, I just never read down there). I will abide by them in the future. As for Wikipedia talk:When to use tables, it seems I'm the major contributor to the discussions, with major changes already written. I assume that the discussion will start from my first post.174.3.111.148 (talk) 20:52, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. I don't plan to involve myself in that discussion. I came in because of reports made at dispute resolution pages, and as long as editors are working together well, I'll drop out again and leave you guys to it. Good luck. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 23:07, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I know that my past discussions give people a biased view as to why I am changing the guide line. I have stopped discussion in those fora. Please discuss the changes that you don't feel should be included in the guideline. Also, please specifically tell me how much time I should wait until I should change the guideline.174.3.111.148 (talk) 23:21, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You just have to get a consensus for the changes. You do that in the talk page of the guideline, not here. The onus is on YOU to explain clearly what changes you think should be in the guideline. It is in your interest to be persuasive, and argumentative is rarely persuasive. At present, it is really hard to follow what you are even saying.

I have no particular stake in this. I am only here because there is a problem with editors working together.

Here's a suggestion, which I don't mean as an attack, but as something that may help. You've raised this in all kinds of different forums, quite inappropriately. You have, for example, raised this at wikiquette alters WP:WQA#Inflamatory Comments and at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive115#User:Nifboy User:Gary King reported by User:174.3.111.148 (Result: No violation). In both those discussions, all the neutral input from other editors says that you are the one who is the problem. I concur with that general viewpoint; so far you haven't been following the long accepted and well tested wikipedia conventions for how we all try to get along and work together on the encyclopedia. I became involved because of the WQA alert, and wikiquette is my concern; not tables per se.

My advice: you should stop reporting people. You should stop trying to modify guidelines until you have clearly obtained a concensus. You have to accept that you might not get a consensus. If you don't get the consensus, then you NEVER get alter the guideline; it's not a matter of waiting long enough! At this point it certainly seems unlikely. I also recommend you stop trying to modify Wikipedia:Don't revert due to "no consensus", as your changes to this essay are quite properly disputed, and ALSO look like trying to game the system. The reverts to your changes are NOT simply due to "no consensus" and nothing else. People have explained why they don't like your changes, and unless and until you get consensus, your changes are not going to take place. Don't try to get consensus by talking about it at a whole lot of different user talk pages. Don't try to get consensus by reporting people at dispute resolution pages when then disagree with you in good faith and edit appropriately in consequence.

Good luck with it all. I appreciate you are sincere in trying to work with the system, and mean this as friendly advice. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 01:22, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have clearly mentioned what is wrong with page. It is up to the interested parties to query me more for more information.

Please look at this edit. Why is it that my edits require consensus, when I HAVE discussed my changes?. (Oh, and don't go reverting that change; I agree with it).

I would like to believe you don't have legal interest either any of the issues that you have started reverting on, but precisely because you have done this, it makes me wonder..

Please do not think I have raised issues with editors inappropriately. I think they were edit warring, with invested interest, which is reason to report bad faith behavior.

Although the input maybe neutral, I still feel he was discriminating against me. I think that's hard to persuade.

I think I have been following civil behaviors editing. You are not the only one who have mentioned that they believe I have been acting in good faith.

I have stopped reporting people.

Concerning guideline modification, don't you think you owe me a reply if you don't feel when I said "I assume that the discussion will start from my first post" applied?

I want to stress the significance of not waring on the previous points of contention that I had with previous editors. I have accepted some points that I could not get consensus for. Some edits on pages that I used to edit I no longer edit. I just have a very aggressive editing manner.

Please compare this edit. This edit says alot.

Please look at the discussions I've started. I makes me confused: how is it possible that people are objecting to the changes, if they don't even discuss their concerns? Canvassing is inappropriate. Obviously, I am opposing the current version of the page. There's already objection to the current version. I think due process should be given in this case.

When I was reporting people, they were edit warring because they did not discuss their concerns.174.3.111.148 (talk) 06:13, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]