Talk:Arabic numerals

This template must be substituted. Replace {{Requested move ...}} with {{subst:Requested move ...}}.

Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting, and read through the list of highlighted discussions below before starting a new one: Specifically, whether it should be named Arabic numerals or Hindu-Arabic numerals. This has been debated many times. It has been repeatedly decided to follow the Manual of Style and go with the most common English name, which is "Arabic numerals". Although we call the positional system the "Hindu-Arabic numeral system", because the system is common to India, Arabia, and Europe, the term "Arabic numerals" is not inaccurate for the digits themselves, which are not common across this area. The Arabic numerals (or sometimes "arabic numerals") are the set of digits original to western Arabs, which they passed on to Europe and via Europe to much of the rest of the world. They are not common to India; Thai numerals, for example, are also implementations of the Hindu-Arabic numeral system, but are distinct from the topic of this article.

Mathematics B‑class Mid‑priority

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Mathematics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of mathematics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MathematicsWikipedia:WikiProject MathematicsTemplate:WikiProject Mathematicsmathematics articles B This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-priority on the project's priority scale.

Numbers Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Numbers, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Numbers on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.NumbersWikipedia:WikiProject NumbersTemplate:WikiProject NumbersNumbers articles ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Middle Ages Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Typography Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Typography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Typography on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TypographyWikipedia:WikiProject TypographyTemplate:WikiProject TypographyTypography articles ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

Archives

Talk:Arabic numerals/Archive 1 Talk:Arabic numerals/Archive 2

Are 12345 etc used in arab countries today? It says in Eastern Arabic numerals that those numerals are used in Egypt, and on Arabic_script#Numerals that North Africa uses 123, but what about the other arab countries? -- Astrokey44|talk 04:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The numerals are wrong for Urdu. Urdu doesnt use that 4. The Urdu 4 looks more like the heart symbol <with the point downwards>, chopped in half <We use the left? half, can't remember been too long> with a line from what was the cusp extending up. It's hard to find the symbol on the net, however when I learnt Urdu numerals, we used that instead of the Persian four. This symbol, I havent been able to find even in Unicode. Other than that Urdu writes numerals left-to-right and words right-to-left, this is a holdover from British Raj.

I have never seen this term used except here. Ok, hindu\indian origins can be achnowleged in the article but keep refering to them as "arabic-hindu" numerals is clearly a political aganda and POV. "Danish" at coffee shops did not origin in Denmark but is not called "Danish-Italian-Scandavian" whatever.

Me neither, since the term in use is Hindu-Arabic, not Arabic-Hindu, which I've never seen in use. deeptrivia (talk) 06:09, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

is correct. Hindu is a religion, since Arabs were Muslim then it ought to be 'Hindu-Muslim' Numerals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.181.162.81 (talk) 17:06, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Did Europeans get the numerals from the Arabs or the Persians? The intro makes this point unclear (and possibly conflates Arabs & Persians). Ashmoo 06:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From Arabs. I'll check if there's any confusion in the intro. deeptrivia (talk) 06:09, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I've missed it in the article - but when I was a kid, I read in the "how and why wonder book of mathematics" that the glyphs for "Arabic numerals" was based on the number of angles within the glyph; the following article Arabic Numerals gives an illustration of this concept.

Is this total bunkum? I'm hoping not as I've trotted it out to many people over the years. And if not - should it be in this article (and/or the numerous others that seem to touch on this topic)? Dugo 01:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I found the explanation for the "7' figure the funniest. deeptrivia (talk) 05:11, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Are you talking about the hook at the top, or the cross? French and German speakers cross their sevens (and often their Z's), so if the cross is the funny part - there's about 150 million people doing it every day. The germans also draw big loops on the bottom of their 9's

Crossed 7

Crossed Z

Dugo 12:27, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Angle # 1 and 7 in "7" are real cute attempts to fit everything in the hypothesis. 13:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps people ought to try to understand each other's points here. There is nothing particularly "cute" or "funny" about the way Germans and others write certain numerals, but if these hooks and crosses are relatively modern (which I think they are), of course they cannot be invoked when explaining the origins of the glyphs.--Niels Ø 16:39, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, Niels Ø. Nothing serious here. Just wanted to say that I've never seen a 7 with a horizontal line at the bottom (like shown on this tripod.com homepage referred above). I completely appreciate the importance of understanding different points of view, but notability is also one of our concerns. I personally always cross my Zs and 7s, so it's not that I'm ridiculing the Germans and French for doing that (I didn't even know that crossing is believed to be more prevelant in those countries -- we do it all the time in India.) deeptrivia (talk) 17:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So that's basically my question; is it all hooey? This link gives a "7" and a "9" that more accurately reflects what I saw written in my childhood maths book - and are more credible than the tripod link. German handwritten 9's are extremely close to this figure, and the foot on the "7" seems more believable than the admittedly peculiar constructs on the tripod link. (When posing the question, I found the tripod link for illustrative purposes - and did not read beyond "6" as "1-6" all agreed with memory - so mea culpa there.)

So I'd rather know that it is indeed all crud (conveniently reverse-engineered as deeptrivia suggests) and never repeat it - or know that there is a grain of truth in it.

Aside/Trivia: Discussing this with someone yesterday, they said that when they grew up in Ireland/UK in the 1930s - a crossed seven were always referred to as "a French seven". Dugo 13:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I always learnt with this angle stuff too. Anyway, even more stupid trivia for cut sevens: When God said "7. You shall not commit adultery.", Moses wrote it with a non-crossed seven, but someone started shouting "Cut the seven! Cut the seven!" (to remove it from the list), and so he did cut it, that's why it has this cutting stroke in the middle... Lol... 200.230.213.152 04:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just checked out Ifrah's book on the history of numbers, which is a 600 page comprehensive book. It contains half a dozen theories like this (including this) under a section on "Fanciful Explanations for hte origin of "Arabic" numerals" which have long been rejected. This one comes from a Spaniard Carlos Le Maur (1778). These explanations, the book says "are flawed because they are the fruit of the pseudo-scientific imaginations of men who are fooled by appearances and who jump to conclusions which completely contradict both historical facts and the results of epigraphic and palaeographic research". It's a pity that some schools still teach this angle stuff! deeptrivia (talk) 00:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since when is it considered that arabic numerals are "Western" or "European" we may adapt them but it doesn't mean we made them.

Let's hold off on deleting these headers for a bit. There seems to be at least two editors (myself and User:FayssalF) who are concerned with this blanking. Thanks. Kukini 02:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

[ http://www.alargam.com/numbers/sir/1.htm]

File:وهدَفي حسابْ.gif

—The preceding unsigned image was added by Calcul (talk • contribs) 17:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to a popular tradition, still tough in Egypt and North Africa, the “Arab” figures would be the invention of a glazier geometrician originating in the Maghreb, which would have imagined to give to the nine significant figures an evocative form depending on the number of the angles contained in the drawing of each one of them: an angle for the graphics of figure 1, two angles for figure 2, three angles for the 3, and so on:

[1]

We will have the following format:

[2]...

This remained after nine and zero as they are. Make turn around eight, six, five, four, three and one. Reverse number two and the figure of seven. The delivery of some of these forms to each other, without change in the arrangement, we get this form:

[3]...

This is an Arabic sentence meaning: My goal is calculation (وهدَفي حسابْ) in Kufi line (This name called on all lines, which tend to location and engineering). With that zero is the stillness.

In this ancient manuscript, we find the number two of its original form.

[4]...

To return at Alphabetic numerals Abjad we find that seven letters of this sentence وهدَفي حسابْ is units in the table of Abjad numerals (The Abjad numerals are a decimal numeral system which was used in the Arabic-speaking world prior to the use of the Arabic numerals). This is not a coincidence. Since the Abjad numerals were often employed to record the history of the events, the value of the sentence وهدَفي حسابْ is the date of the invention of these figures. 6+5+4+80+10+8+60+1+2 is 176. 176 hijri is 792, history very appropriate to put these figures. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.12.207.41 (talk • contribs) 06:42, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This "explanation" appears to be a) original research, b) in conflict with the information presented in the article's existing information/images showing the evolution of these symbols, and c) largely incoherent in both grammar and content. Please do not add your image again without discussing it here first. Ruyn 14:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You can see well that the image takes place here for a long time and proves in a scientific explanation that Arabic numerals are Arabic.--Manssour 17:48, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OMG. Just finished removing this joke from wikipedias in a dozen languages. deeptrivia (talk) 06:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This image was added here To complement the theme : Angle explanation for glyphs? and You(deeptrivia) are not here responsible for all wikipedia.--Manssour 08:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you think that this image is a joke, what will you tell about these images? 123456789--Manssour 08:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We can see the correct format and sequence of the medieval "european" numbers in title page of the book Libro Intitulado Arithmetica Practica by Juan de Yciar, the Basque calligrapher and mathematician, Saragossa 1549, and at Filippo Calandri, De Arithmetica, Florença: Lorenzo Morgiani and Johannes Petri, 1491-92, page 145. The figures shows the calligraphical place value of: one 1, two 2, three 3, fuor 4, five 5, six 6, seven 7, eight 8, nine 9, and ten o.

[5]

Rename this article to Hindu Numerals as it originated in India and was first created by Aryabhatta. I though the whole point of Wikipedia was to make people get the right knowledge, but the correct title is not correct.

It's a good thing the second paragraph is there, else the reader may forget that they're Indian in origin, as related in the first paragraph.

Partway down the page, you have an image of the Hindu numeral system, in the section "Origins". The formatting at this point is messed up. It's got overlapping elements. I don't know enough to fix it.

Femcofounder (talk) 00:07, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the introduction to the topic, it says: these numerals are called in Arabic language itself, "Hindu numerals"

This sentence is either wrong or very misleading.

In Arabic, we call the numbers that are used in the middle east "Indian Numerals", they are represented (from right to left) as: ٠ ١ ٢ ٣ ٤ ٥ ٦ ٧ ٨ ٩

However this term (Indian Numerals) is used to only refer to these numeral, not the ones that are used in Morrocco, North Africa, and Europe, which are: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. This form is referred to as "Arabic Numerals" in the Arab world

In other words, we refer to the numbers we use in the middle east as "Indian", and refer to the ones commonly used by North African Arabs and the rest of the world as "Arabic".

(67.171.224.169 (talk) 04:07, 20 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Hi I undid your changes to Arabic_numerals since it makes sense to retain the name as Hindu-Arabic_numerals. Other related articles are named thus, see Hindu-Arabic_numeral_system & History_of_the_Hindu-Arabic_numeral_system. Moreover, using the term "Arabic numerals" might be misleading since arabs today use numbers that are based on the Hindu Arabic numeral system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.42.21.148 (talk) 17:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC) and copied here from User talk:Francis Schonken by Jitse Niesen (talk) 10:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are a couple of problems with your edits. Firstly, the proper procedure to retitle a page is as explained at Help:Moving a page. In particular, as it says there, "You should never just move a page by cutting all the text out of one page, and pasting it into a new one; old revisions, notes, and attributions are much harder to keep track of if you do that." Secondly, you say that other related articles are named thus, but there is a difference between Arabic numerals and the Hindu-Arabic numeral system. The "Arabic numerals" refer to the symbols 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9, and that is the subject of this page. The "Hindu-Arabic numeral system" refers to the positional system with zero, which may use these symbols or similar symbols from which the symbols 0, 1, 2, etc. developed. This is explained on this very talk page. Thirdly, the key point in naming an article here is which name is used in practice. Fourthly, this has been discussed many times, on this very talk page. The last time it was decided that the page should be titled "Arabic numerals", so the onus is on you to show that there is a consensus to move the page to "Hindu-Arabic numerals" by following the procedure explained at Wikipedia:Requested moves. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 10:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic numerals can also refer to the numerals Arabs use to write numbers, but that is beside the point. The "cut and paste" move was done without consensus, so it must be reverted. --Joshua Issac (talk) 20:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Which name is used in practice" is a matter of POV, and if Wikipedia is to be made non-eurocentric, we need to discuss here about the inappropriate name of this article. The numerals currently in use are not even the same that were even transferred to Europe from India by the Arabs. Arabic numerals can only means numerals used in Arabian countries or in the arabian language. 86.96.226.88 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:59, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The English Wikipedia is written in the English language, so the titles of the articles are in English, so we choose the titles depending on how terms are used in the English language.

Dictionaries disagree with your last sentence. For instance, the Oxford English Dictionary says "arabic numerals: the figures 1, 2, 3, 4, etc." Languages often do not follow logic. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 13:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The OED has one illustration of "Hindu-Arabic numerals":

1911 Smith & Karpinski Hindu-Arabic Numerals iii. 45 Concerning the earliest epigraphical instances of the use of the nine symbols, plus the zero, with place value, there is some question.

It also has only one of "Arabic numerals":

1799 T. Green Diary Lover of Lit. (1810) 177 Writing, he deduces, from pictural representations, through hieroglyphics ... to arbitrary marks ... like the Chinese characters and Arabic numerals.

In definitions, only the latter is used:

cipher, v. 1. intr. To use the Arabic numerals in the processes of arithmetic; to work the elementary rules of arithmetic; now chiefly a term of elementary education.

†small figures: Arabic numerals

algorism: the Arab mathematician Abu Ja'far Mohammed Ben Musa, ... through the translation of whose work on Algebra, the Arabic numerals became generally known in Europe.

However, whereas "arabic numerals" are defined as "the figures 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.", there is no definition for "Hindu-Arabic numerals". Note by this usage, "arabic" is in small case. This distinguishes them from "Arabic numerals" in upper case, though even the OED is not consistent here. (Note they are also not consistent about "Algebra", but we do not capitalize algebra in Wikipedia.) kwami (talk) 00:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That only covered the plural form. In the singular there are a couple more. Note under uranium:

Also with following (arabic) numeral, denoting the mass number of the isotope concerned; and with following (usu. Roman) numeral or capital letter denoting an isotope of uranium or one formed by the decay of uranium.

kwami (talk) 01:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm making another call for this article to be moved or renamed to "Hindu-Arabic numerals" in fitting with the standards laid out by Wikipedia. This is the most common usage for this subject in English. It is the spelling/capitalization used in most dictionaries and encyclopedias. And this title goes along with related articles better and better reflects the development of this numeral system. Rapparee71 (talk) 20:15, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There has been a long debate going on as to whether this article should be named "Arabic Numerals" or "Hindu-Arabic numerals", etc.
I suggest we move the article to Decimal Numerals as that would be a lot fairer to both sides; and more technically correct. Arjun G. Menon (talk · mail) 23:54, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But there are other decimal systems. kwami (talk) 00:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since this is the most common decimal system in place, emthinks an article title "Decimal Numerals" would be well-deserved. Other decimal systems can retain whatever name they are under currently. And, there is no article Decimal Numerals which is also a good thing. Lastly, kwami; out of curiosity, I would like to know what are the other decimal systems. Arjun G. Menon (talk · mail) 02:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The biggest problem is that no-one calls them "decimal numerals". If I read the phrase "decimal numerals" out of context, I would have no idea what was meant. In fact, it makes no sense: the numerals themselves are not decimal, unless by decimal you mean base ten; it is the Hindu-Arabic system which is decimal. To answer your question, you'll have to tell me what you mean by "decimal". kwami (talk) 05:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The school that I went to (an Indian school - CBSE syllabus), taught 2 number systems mainly:

• Decimal numbers
• Roman numbers

The term "Arabic" or "Hinud-Arabic" has never ever been used in school or in any of the textbooks. I first knew of this term by reading it on the internet and not from any textbooks. I believe schools and universities and over India use the term "Decimal numbers", I don't know of a single one that uses either "Arabic", "Hindu-Arabic", "Indo-Arabic", etc. In reality I think majority of people (esp. in India) call these numerals "Decimal Numbers". Therefore the name "Decimal Numerals" which is in coherence with popular usage is much more preferable. Arjun G. Menon (talk · mail) 15:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I still do not understand what you mean. Are ० १ २ ३ ४ ५ ६ ७ ८ ९ not "decimal numerals"? kwami (talk) 18:00, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're talking about the symbols used to represent the numbers. I'm talking about the number system itself. Why does this article contain both "٠.١.٢.٣.٤.٥.٦.٧.٨.٩" and "0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9" ? Arjun G. Menon (talk · mail) 22:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're at the wrong article. If you had bothered to read it before telling us how to "improve" it, you would know that. kwami (talk) 22:40, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My pont is, as is that of many others; that this article is mistitled. I don't want to start another long debate on the article name, so I'll close the discussion here. Arjun G. Menon (talk · mail) 22:06, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This debate has been made many times before. However, "Arabic numerals" is the normal English term. I personally use "Hindu-Arabic", because I think it's important to let people know their Indian roots. However, "Arabic numerals" is factually correct: These are the Maghrebi Arabic numerals. They are identical to the numerals in Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco, where they came from—though there may have been some mutual influence there since that time. kwami (talk) 18:40, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One of the arguments for choosing "Arabic numerals" over "Hindu-Arabic numerals" is that this is the form found in the OED. However, that is not quite true. Although the OED is often inconsistent in capitalization ("Algorism" vs. "algorism", for example), the definition of this phrase, listed under the capitalized "Arabic", is carefully not capitalized in the OED:

Arabic, a.

1. Of or pertaining to Arabia or its language. arabic numerals: the figures 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.

2. esp. in gum arabic, which is exuded by certain species of Acacia, and arabic acid, obtained from it.

That is, the position of the OED is that "arabic numeral" should no more be capitalized than "gum arabic".

Adopting this position, besides having the authority of the world's greatest dictionary behind it, has the added benefit of disambiguating "arabic numerals" = European/ISO numerals from "Arabic numerals" = East/West Arabic numerals. It is the conflation of these two concepts that motivates the endlessly resurrected debate over whether this article should be located here or under "Hindu-Arabic numerals". Perhaps this will help resolve the debate. kwami (talk) 01:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Although there is a note at the end of the lead section about the capitalisation of "arabic", the varying capitalisation styles in the paragraphs preceding this -- especially in the bold terms -- still looks like random inconsistency or an oversight. The significance of capitalisation needs to be explained where the bold terms are defined. 86.134.12.220 (talk) 02:53, 10 March 2009 (UTC).[reply]

And the opening sentence -- The arabic numerals, or Hindu numerals (often capitalized)... -- is also confusing since "Hindu" is already shown as capitalised. Maybe it means that "arabic" is often capitalised, but the intervening alternative name makes this unclear. 86.134.12.220 (talk) 02:59, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to the citation in the article, the OED says to write it lowercase, but Merriam-Webster (m-w.com), Random House (dictionary.com), New Oxford American Dictionary (the dictionary built into Mac OS X), and Encarta (the built-in dictionary in Word) all write it capitalized: Arabic numerals. Also, Word auto-corrects it to capitalized. -- tooki (talk) 12:55, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It was always written as "Hindu-Arabic" when I was growing up in the 1970's and 1980s in textbooks and encyclopedias. And if you look in Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, you will see it written as Hindu-Arabic. It is listed as an adjective, in use since 1925. Could this be another case of dialectal differences? In American English it is "Hindu-Arabic", but in British English it's written "arabic"? Since more sources use "Hindu-Arabic", this is what we should default to. Also, since Wikipedia is an American endeavour (even though contributors come from all over the English speaking world), we should default to American English. Rapparee71 (talk) 19:59, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I always saw it as "Arabic numerals" in my education in USA and Switzerland -- until Wikipedia, I'd never heard of them referred to as anything else. (That said, my background in this regard is grade school and basic college math, and typography. I am not a math historian.) Regardless, as should be evident from the heading my note is under: I posted to discuss CAPITALIZATION, not the terminology per se. I am arguing "arabic" vs. "Arabic", NOT "arabic" (or "Arabic") vs. "Hindu-Arabic". -- tooki (talk) 14:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And another thing is that this article should be entitled "Hindu-Arabic numerals". There is already an article titled "Hindu-Arabic numeral system" anyway. Do we need both? Even the Encyclopaedia Britannica has the article listed as "Hindu-Arabic system", as a sub-heading under "numeral and numeral systems". Rapparee71 (talk) 20:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

British English uses "arabic" instead of "Hindu-Arabic" as opposed to American English? OK, then. If you take a look at the above discussion, you will see that the page was moved to Arabic Numerals against consensus. Anyway, if you are still planning to carry on with the proposal, good luck...--Joshua Issac (talk) 22:31, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't any experience in moving an article. Whoever feels like doing it, do so. This article definitely needs to be moved ASAP. Rapparee71 (talk) 03:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, it doesn't, it's currently under what I believe to be the most widely-known term, as based on one dictionary after another. (The people voting in a wikipedia discussion page are NOT a representative sample.)-- tooki (talk) 14:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Scholarly sources which talk about the numerals refer to them as Hindu-Arabic Numerals.--Joshua Issac (talk) 14:56, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FIRST: YOU de-credit Indians, by renaming this to Arabic numerals, on top of that, there is ABSOLUTELY NO BLOODY MENTION OF ARYABHATTA IN THIS ARTICLE? --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 11:15, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• The article "Arabic numerals" needs to be moved to "Hindu-Arabic numerals". But "Hindu-Arabic numerals" is redirecting to "Arabic numerals" presently — Rapparee71 (talk) 12:11, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• This topic has been discussed many times in this talk page. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:04, 17 May 2009 (UTC) — Previous discussion above here. here, here, here, here, and, most recently just above. — AjaxSmack 05:44, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I added a warning at the top of this page. Hopefully it captures the essence of the consensus. (Which, BTW, I opposed!) kwami (talk) 06:25, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The fact remains that most reference and academic works refer to this subject as "Hindu-Arabic numerals". And as such, this should be the name of the article. It needs to be moved back to this heading. Rapparee71 (talk) 07:59, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose, per WP:COMMONNAME. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:08, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let's not rehash the argument. It's a waste of time we could better spend elsewhere. Rapparee, I'm on your side, but this article isn't going anywhere. And it doesn't "need" anything: naming is a matter of preference, not a requirement. kwami (talk) 08:53, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above shows that consensus was to keep the page at Hindu-Arabic numerals, but the closing administrator decided to move it any way, introducing new rules not used anywhere else on Wikipedia in order to do so.--Joshua Issac (talk) 15:23, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, it appears that this article was moved to the present one against the policies of Wikipedia and against the consensus of both the majority of editors and against the majority of references. It needs to be moved back immediately, no more delay. Rapparee71 (talk) 10:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We currently have separate articles on Arabic numerals and Hindu-Arabic numeral system, as well as one on positional notation. This is more articles than there ought to be. The distinction between (Hindu–)Arabic numerals and the numeral system seems to have been something made up on Wikipedia, to avoid debates of the sort that keep occurring on the page. This is WP:OR — our "reliable sources" don't maintain a distinction between "Arabic/Hindu-Arabic numerals" and the "numeral system", often using "Hindu–Arabic numerals"[6] or "Arabic numerals" to mean both the actual symbols and the positional system, in the sense of distinguishing this from Roman numerals (which, again, refers to both the symbols and the system).

We shouldn't separate articles and create our own compromises just to avoid debate. It would be more accurate to put everything in one article, and I hope we can undertake efforts to merge them. Shreevatsa (talk) 13:31, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article about the system should either redirect here, or to positional notation or decimal.--Joshua Issac (talk) 15:41, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

After a merge, yes. I didn't realise we also have articles on decimal and decimal representation.... Shreevatsa (talk) 16:18, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose These are distinct concepts. What you're proposing is like merging alphabet with Latin alphabet. There is the system, and then there are the various instantiations of that system. Arabic numerals are just one; we also have articles on East Arabic, various Indian, Thai, and Khmer. Why should we have those, and not an article on the digits we use in English? Also, this has nothing to do with decimal notation! There are lots of decimal systems in the world, such as Roman and Chinese numerals, which have nothing to do with this article. And although India was the start of positional notation, it does now occur elsewhere, for example with modern Chinese numbers. kwami (talk) 17:12, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do most sources maintain these as distinct concepts? Roman numerals and Roman numeral system are clearly distinct concepts, but we have only one article — because it is not Wikipedia's place to observe distinctions that are not in published sources. Shreevatsa (talk) 20:12, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hindu-Arabic numerals are the characters used in the Hindu-Arabic numeral system, a decimal numerical system. These are two separate subjects, albeit related. Rapparee71 (talk) 10:21, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Says who? (It might be true, but we shouldn't believe it without a source.) Shreevatsa (talk) 14:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to the OED, a digit is a grapheme ("figure") used for a number, which in our system is 1234567890, in Roman is IVXLCDM, etc. A numeral is (a) a word expressing a number (one, twenty, hundred, etc.) or (b) a digit. However, Arabic (Indian, Hindu-Arabic) numerals is a set phrase; *Arabic digits is not used in the OED.

Ifrah, p 10: "Our current number system is just such [a decimal system], using the following graphic signs, often referred to as Arabic numerals: 1234567890.

In other words, there is the numerical system, and then there are the figures it utilizes, just as there is the alphabetic system, and the particular letters (Greek, Roman, Armenian) that it utilizes. Ifrah also covers the history of the Indian system, starting with the figures that were used with a decimal but non-positional system, not unlike Roman numerals, and then evolving into a positional system. (Just as for example the Greek letters started out as an abjad.) That is, the Indian numerals were not always used with the Hindu-Arabic numeral system. Of course, it's common to not be explicit whether one is referring to numbers, numerals, digits, or positional systems, leaving the distinction to context. kwami (talk) 20:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]