Talk:Sarah Jeong: Difference between revisions

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Encyclopedic content must be verifiable. The line "Soon after being hired... was found to have posted a number of... racist messages directed at white people," is not in two important ways. First, it uses the word "found," which suggests a mainstream authority, preferably a scientific one. Second, ThePostOnline is an explicitly right-wing news site, according to wikipedia's own article on it, and therefore not a reliable source. I suggest one of three courses of action:

1. Add a "needs a better source" tag to the citation.
2. Change the line to something like: "Jeong has been accused of posting a number of messages on social media platform Twitter that are racist, hateful, violent, and aggressive."
3. Remove the line entirely.

JeanLackE (talk) 13:45, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

•  Done per 3. Innisfree987 (talk) 15:19, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since the subject joined the NYT, offsite efforts from conspiracy theorists and their ilk to cherry pick social media quotes have begun. Examples:

• example 1
• example 2
• example 3

Looking at the history page this has already led to some bad faith edits to push an agenda.Citing (talk) 14:58, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Jeong made a number of tweets with regards to "White people." The New York Times, Jeong herself, the Twitter archive, and Fox News all admit that. Many people took offense to the tweets. The New York Times replied to their concerns. This was a newsworthy happening.

So I have a question.

First: what right leaning site is acceptable to Wikipedia? If Fox publishes a story on it, can that be used as a citation? Second: Obviously the New York Times and the Washington Post lean left. Why would they be acceptable sources if Fox is not? Third: If the tweets themselves exist, why does it matter what source points to them? If Wikipedia only accepts left wing sources, then all the left has to ever do is not report on anything ethically problematic for the left, e.g. embargo leftist racism.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/08/02/new-york-times-editorial-board-just-hired-virulent-racist/ , https://www.nationalreview.com/news/sarah-jeong-new-york-times-hires-writer-racist-past/ , must be "conspiracy theorists" attacking a sweet innocent woman out of nothing more than bad faith. How dare anyone get upset about racial hatred directed towards whites! 174.52.219.29 (talk) 15:39, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Biographies of living people must adhere to very high standards. If you are curious about sourcing please see Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. In this case there is a clear-cut effort to push an agenda using unreliable sources (see examples above).Citing (talk) 16:05, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

All the tweets in question are archived on archive.is which is considered a reliable source on wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Using_archive.is 195.138.52.26 (talk) 16:27, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Generally you're not supposed to link to primary sources, especially in a biography of a living subject. Their archival is not the problem. The problem is this is clearly part of an effort to discredit someone and Wikipedia is not the place for this.Citing (talk) 16:33, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is this the right way to edit? It seems my last set of questions did not come through.2601:281:C501:3BE8:26:FE3C:149:9B37 (talk) 17:39, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't the first time Twitter behavior/ abusive tweets are included in someone's biography. Quick random example I could find browsing I just wonder if a well known conservative journalist or politician had made similar remarks on black people ie. referring to genetic inferiority as Sarah Jeong did and National Review a 62 year old publication published a story on it. Would you object to an edit too? 195.138.52.26 (talk) 16:48, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That guy got arrested for tweets. The policy on biographies of living people is to be very careful with what gets added as this is an encyclopedia and not a source of breaking news. Don't give undue weight to minor topics. This biography is, what, three paragraphs long with one of those dedicated to some tweets, with absolutely no context? This does not look like a good-faith effort to improve the article.Citing (talk) 17:00, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is not an "effort to discredit her", Wikipedia is for factual information and this is just stating the facts. It's not discrediting her because of the tweets, she discredited herself when she made the racist tweets. I know you have a clear bias and an agenda to help a racist, so this will only turn into another pointless edit-war. Luchador619 (talk) 16:39, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's up on Fox now. Here is a comparable Wikipedia article. Notice the controversy section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_D._Williamson

The left leaning NYT has acknowledged her tweets now, so it's fine to add to this article under a controversy section.

Many sources ^[1][2][3][4] are covering this controversy as well as the response of Jeong and the NYT which are starting to also be included in new articles ^[5]. I think its unavoidable at this point that this must be included in the article; whatever we include will be contentious and it should be hashed out of the talk page instead of in a pointless edit war. Also, by waiting a bit more articles from a wider variety of sources will probably come out, to satisfy those who have an intense dislike of fox/NR/WT. SWL36 (talk) 17:31, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is placating people who dislike RS because they (the editors) are biased something we really should be playing along with? Demigord (talk) 17:49, 2 August 2018 (UTC) Can also add the SF Chronicle and Reason to sources publishing on this. Daily Telegraph, too, apparently.Demigord (talk) 18:39, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Obviously I am learning. While I lean right (classical liberal, Locke/Mill), my main interest is with internal consistency between Wikipedia articles. I think it would be possible to eliminate more of the inherent bias by simply requiring different types of articles to be consistent with each other. In this case, by looking at the Kevin D. Williamson article above, we can see there is a controversy section which outlines a situation very similar to what we have with Ms. Jeong's bio. I am not experienced enough yet to directly edit the article. Hence my several formerly unsigned comments. Again, I am trying to work in good faith to help improve Wikipedia. Other editors have made some suggestions about sources. I want to reread the article on Wiki bias as well, and do what I can from there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Systemic_bias Other suggestions are welcome. I have a lot to learn, but I believe I can sign now. Thanks again.2601:281:C501:3BE8:26:FE3C:149:9B37 (talk) 17:47, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Williamson example is not at all commensurate given that he was fired over the issue (thus it is much more significant to his career and an encyclopedic biography of him), but additionally that section of his bio is very poorly done and does not reflect the kind of encyclopedic summary of reliable secondary sources WP content policies ask us to aim for (WP:QUOTEFARM among other issues). I don't have time just now but I will go improve it as soon as I can. In the meantime, no one should take its current version as a model. For those new, please read WP:Other stuff exists on the care to take with reasoning by comparison to other entries--Wikipedia is a constant work-in-progress and just because one entry looks a given way does not mean it has been brought up to standard or should be emulated. See also WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Some comparisons can be useful but it is often more advisable to consult content policies and the WP:Manual of style for best guidance. Innisfree987 (talk) 18:05, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"The Williamson example is not at all commensurate given that he was fired over the issue(thus it is much more significant to his career and an encyclopedic biography of him)". I would think that since she is actively working on the editorial board of the New York Times that makes her a far more significant influencer. That is, her position of power in our society relative to Williamson would seem to indicate the opposite of what you have said; she merits a more thorough entry. Nevertheless, thank you for attending to the Williamson article if the quality is poor by Wikipedia standards. Also, thank you for the help pages. I will create a username soon. 2601:281:C501:3BE8:26:FE3C:149:9B37 (talk) 18:17, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, questions like, 'what is the relative influence of the Atlantic versus the Times?' are judgment calls that WP policy (developed by community consensus) explicitly forbids users from making on their own; we should only follow what reliable secondary sources say about the topic at hand. The main content policies WP:Verifiability, WP:Neutral point of view and WP:No original research go into this in much more detail and are worth a read as well--I know a lot of WP policy can be very counter-intuitive (or at least it was to me when I started editing!) and operates very differently from journalism, academic research, and so forth. (There are whole sites, like Everipedia, created entirely because some folks strongly disagreed with, e.g., Wikipedia's relatively high bar for what's permissible to include here). But in any case welcome and happy editing! Feel free to drop me a line if you have any questions getting oriented that I can help with! Innisfree987 (talk) 18:40, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Again here are her tweets (I don't understand why someone would delete them):

• https://archive.fo/byEMf
• https://archive.fo/yXccF
• https://archive.fo/3JXbr
• https://archive.fo/QyWKK
• https://archive.fo/CIlmU
• https://archive.fo/HTSXh
• https://archive.fo/HYPOI
• https://archive.fo/BmBJ0

It's not about politics. It's about truth. Those are the things she said.

Tweets are fine for the talk page. Editorializing about them (as happened previously) is not, per WP:NOTFORUM, and as the notice at the top of this page reminds us, all WP policies on WP:Biographies of living people apply here as well as to the entry itself; violations will be deleted. As for the tweets, WP:No original research as well as other content policies like WP:NOTNEWS and WP:DUEWEIGHT govern what may be included in the entry. Innisfree987 (talk) 18:40, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but someone deleted them from the talk page and wrote something about "white genocide conspiracists". I'm not sure this is what Wikipedia is about.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.39.64.68 (talk)

I didn't see anyone removing the tweets from this talk page (though correct me if I've missed it). Someone did remove my comment about conspiracy theorists trying to get her fired and edit the article.Citing (talk) 18:56, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a new subsection on the controversy. The information is sourced from reliable sources and I went out of the way to include who found the tweets, what the tweets said, what context the tweets were said within, and the response from the NYT and Jeong herself. SWL36 (talk) 19:00, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

one of these tweets included her saying “Oh man it's kind of sick how much joy I get out of being cruel to old white men.

Oh how harmless. Another tweet included her saying: "Dumbass fucking white people marking up the internet with their opinions like dogs pissing on fire hydrants" and another one "Are white people genetically predisposed to burn faster in the sun, thus logically being only fit to live underground like groveling goblins".Template:Subset:unsigned IP

Here are some reliable sources discussing this issue.[1][2][3][4] Truthsort (talk) 19:07, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'd start the sentence with --

• On August 2, 2018, Reason Magazine published the title, "The New York Times Shouldn't Fire Sarah Jeong for Racist Tweets About White People",^[1] after FOX News,^[2] and the National Review,^[3] reported on her controversial Tweets. An official Twitter account, NYTimes Communications, attributed Jeong's Twitter statements to rhetoric, confirming that they were aware of the Tweets and that Jeong would be hired to write for the Editorial section.^[2][4]

cheers ESparky (talk) 19:10, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]