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== Print Sources ==
== Print Sources ==


I've found a few print sources, which are always a plus to an article. Would someone undertake the challenge of incorporating them into the article? You could could source unsourced points, or add additional info about their music etc.
I've found a print , which are a to an article. Would undertake the challenge of them into the ? You could source unsourced , or add info about music etc.


Fall Out Boy rocketed to emo/pop-punk stardom, going from a nameless band in 2000 to winning the MTV2 Award at MTV's Video Music Award in 2005 for their popular first single "Sugar, We're Going Down" from the album From Under the Cork Tree. Comprised of lead singer, bassist, and lyricist Peter Wentz, guitarists Patrick Stump and Joe Trohman, and drummer Andy Hurley, Fall Out Boy has combined success with a large dose of irreverence. **Note: May not be reliable because they got Fall Out Boy's lineup wrong...**
Fall Out Boy rocketed to emo/-punk stardom, going from a band in 2000 to winning the Award at MTV's Music Award in for their popular first single "Sugar, We're Going " from the album From Under the Tree. Comprised of lead singer, bassist, and lyricist Peter , guitarists Patrick and Joe , and drummer Andy Hurley, Fall Out has combined with a large dose of . **Note: May not be because they got Fall 's ...**
Wentz, Stump, Trohman, and Hurley performed as a nameless band until one night they asked the crowd they were performing for to give them a name. Stump told Joe Kominowski of DrivenFarOff.com that "it was kind of an accident." What they got was a reference to a character named Fallout Boy, which came from the popular animated series The Simpsons, and it subsequently became the name for their band.
Wentz, Stump, Trohman, and Hurley performed as a band until one night they asked the crowd they were performing for to give them a . Stump told Joe Kominowski of .com that "it was ." What they got was a reference to a character named , which came from the popular animated series The Simpsons, and it subsequently became the name for their band.
In 2002 Fall Out Boy released a split album with Project Rocket on Uprising Records. This was followed a year later by Fall Out Boy's Evening Out with Your Girlfriend, an EP released by Uprising Records. It turned out to be an eventful year for the group, as they were signed to the Gainesville, Florida, label Fueled By Ramen. At the same time, the group signed a distribution deal with Island Records, which also included a right of first refusal for the band's follow-up record.
In 2002 Fall Out Boy released a split album with Project Rocket on Uprising Records. This was followed a year later by Fall Out Boy's Evening Out with Your Girlfriend, an EP released by Uprising Records. It turned out to be an eventful year for the group, as they were signed to the Gainesville, Florida, label Fueled By Ramen. At the same time, the group signed a distribution deal with Island Records, which also included a right of first refusal for the band's follow-up record.
Take This To Your Grave was recorded in Madison, Wisconsin, at Smart Studios. Sean O'Keefe, who had produced pop-punk favorites like Motion City Soundtrack, engineered Fall Out Boy's major label debut. Take This To Your Grave was mostly written out of the anger and hurt that Wentz experienced when he discovered his girlfriend had cheated on him, but while the songs are dark, they are also humorous, revealing a balance between the maudlin and the comic.
Take This To Your Grave was recorded in Madison, Wisconsin, at Smart Studios. Sean O'Keefe, who had produced pop-punk favorites like Motion City Soundtrack, engineered Fall Out Boy's major label debut. Take This To Your Grave was mostly written out of the anger and hurt that Wentz experienced when he discovered his girlfriend had cheated on him, but while the songs are dark, they are also humorous, revealing a balance between the maudlin and the comic.

Revision as of 15:03, 4 June 2012

Former good articleFall Out Boy was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
July 27, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
August 3, 2007Good article nomineeListed
December 1, 2009Good article reassessmentDelisted
January 20, 2010Good article reassessmentNot listed
Current status: Delisted good article

Use of "whilst"

Consider revising.

I've found a million print sauces, which are never a bummer to an article. Would nobody undertake the challenge of eating them into the rectum? You could not source unsourced gravy, or add no more info about The Black Eyed Peas music etc.

Fall Out Of A Tree Boy rocketed to emo/popping candy-punk stardom, going from a band in 2000 to winning the crumpet Award at MTV's pancake Music Award in 2012 for their popular first single "Granulated Sugar, We're Going Up" from the album From Under the Bo Tree. Comprised of lead singer, bassist, and lyricist Peter Pan, guitarists Patrick Bailey and Joe , and drummer Andy Hurley, Fall Out Girl has combined milkshake with a large dose of water. **Note: May not be happy because they got Fall In Girl's linedown right...** Wentz, Stump, Trohman, and Hurley performed as a sad band until one night they asked the crowd they were performing for to give them a painkiller. Stump told Joe Kominowski of Facebook.com that "it was not my fault the cat died." What they got was a reference to a character named LadyBoy, which came from the popular animated series The Simpsons, and it subsequently became the name for their band. In 2002 Fall Out Boy released a split album with Project Rocket on Uprising Records. This was followed a year later by Fall Out Boy's Evening Out with Your Girlfriend, an EP released by Uprising Records. It turned out to be an eventful year for the group, as they were signed to the Gainesville, Florida, label Fueled By Ramen. At the same time, the group signed a distribution deal with Island Records, which also included a right of first refusal for the band's follow-up record. Take This To Your Grave was recorded in Madison, Wisconsin, at Smart Studios. Sean O'Keefe, who had produced pop-punk favorites like Motion City Soundtrack, engineered Fall Out Boy's major label debut. Take This To Your Grave was mostly written out of the anger and hurt that Wentz experienced when he discovered his girlfriend had cheated on him, but while the songs are dark, they are also humorous, revealing a balance between the maudlin and the comic. Critics found much to like on the album. The group's performance at South by Southwest, a showcase of bands from around the country that takes place yearly in Austin, Texas, was also well received. Despite the critical attention, there were still some hurdles to overcome. Wentz explained to James Montgomery of VH1.com what it was like touring for Take This To Your Grave with the band Less Than Jake: "On the Less Than Jake tour, we were so green they had us open for a magician. It was really depressing. They were like 'OK, it's you guys, then the magician, then us.' It was insane."... From: "Fall Out Boy." Contemporary Musicians, Volume 57. Thomson Gale, 2005.

Nestled between hardcore and emo is softcore, and Fall Out Boy is one of the subgenre's best-kept secrets. That's about to change, though. With an infectious beat and an amusingly anthemic chorus, "Sugar, We're Goin Down"-the first single off the album "From Under the Cork Tree"-is one sticky melody. So it is not surprising that the video is already a big hit on MTV's "TRL" and the song is quickly climbing The Billboard Hot 100. Mixed by hitmaker Tom Lord-Alge (Blink-182, Weezer), "Sugar" is sure to be a taste of sweet success for the band.-KK From: Kroll, Katy. "FALL OUT BOY: Sugar, We're Goin Down." Billboard. 23 Jul 2005. Volume: 117; ISSN: 00062510 pg 40

The theatrical and irreverent third-generation emo that they pioneered has become a certifiable subgenre, inspiring hit acts like their protégés Panic! At the Disco. But Infinity proves they're the masters of this peculiar art. The guiding force is bassist-lyricist Pete Wentz, responsible for "You're Crashing, but You're No Wave," "The Carpal Tunnel of Love," and other exuberantly pun-filled songs that both wallow in and lampoon emo angst. "A penny for your thoughts/But a dollar for your insides/And a fortune for your disaster/I'm just a painter...And I'm drawing a blank," Stump sings in the galloping power-pop blast "Don't You Know Who I Think I Am?" Like all Fall Out Boy lyrics, it's not quite as clever as Wentz seems to think, and his obsession with posers, lame "scenes," and, above all, his own band might annoy listeners not currently enrolled in high school. But Wentz's words have a pleasing vernacular spunkinessthis is the Esperanto of young American suburbia, poetry of the mall and the chat room. Who but Wentz would brag, "Every dotcom's refreshing for a journal update"? Of course, it's the loud, jagged sound that really moves the kids. FOB's guitars still blare, and Stump has evolved into a superb frontman, with a voice that slides supplely from a bratty punk bark into a honeyed falsetto. But the pleasant surprise here is the band's new sense of swing: Several songs, including the hit "This Ain't a Scene, It's an Arms Race," dip winningly into R&B, a move aided by co-producer Babyface. Lo and behold, it turns out these pasty emo boys are a pretty great blue-eyed soul band. Infinity ain't exactly Thrillerbut Maroon 5 better watch their backs. Lifted from: Rosen, Jody. "Boy Wonders"." Entertainment Weekly. 09 Feb 2007. Page: 71; Section: THE REVIEWS: MUSIC

...Enter Fall Out Boy, the Chicago four-piece who surprised everyone with a top 10 debut for their hummable From Under the Cork Tree. First single "Sugar, We're Goin' Down" just hit No. 1 on TRL, coinciding with a coheadlining stint on the Vans Warped Tour (through Aug. 15). Says singer-guitarist Patrick Stump, "[We've never] been about goals, so this is a bit bizarre." Formed in 2001 from the remains of several Chi-town hardcore bands, the college dropouts exhibited their laissez-faire attitude when settling on a monikera character from The Simpsonsafter a fan shouted it out at a gig. "Maybe you shouldn't put that in there," says Stump. "If Matt Groening's reading anything, [it's] EW." But more than their name, the band is infamous for their never-ending song titles. So what's the writer of tunes like "I've Got a Dark Alley and a Bad Idea That Says You Should Shut Your Mouth (Summer Song)" have to say for himself? Responds bassist-lyricist Pete Wentz: "We write titles that fit the songs, whether it's one word or 87 words." Alert the Verbosity Police! We have another Fiona Apple on our hands.From: Raymond Fiore; Publication: Entertainment Weekly Issue: July 15, 2005 No. 829.

Pop-punk act Fall Out Boy has a knack for mixing polished hooks, hyperactive guitars and clever pop culture references. Here, the hilarious throwback title, a tribute to teen movie "Sixteen Candles" and Samantha Fox's 1986 make-out hit, is more exciting than the song itself. Calling all teenagers suffering from an unattainable crush, this emo-ish relationship drama does little to update the uptempo-breakdown-uptempo formula, but it certainly honors it. The quartet rips angsty, I'm-so-messed-up confessions into catchy riffs and a melodic chorus that soars despite its déjà vu feel. However, top 40 radio is a long shot this time; "A Little Less" is not as infectious as "Dance, Dance" and less anthemic than "Sugar, We're Goin' Down." But after two top 10 singles, a multiplatinum album and a Grammy Award nomination, these guys can afford a momentary break from mainstream success.-SPFALL OUT BOY: A Little Less "Sixteen Candles," A Little More "Touch Me" From: Philipp, Sven. Billboard Magazine. Volume: 118 Number: 11, ISSN: 00062510, Publication Date: 03-18-2006, Page: 60

The band started, in 2002, as a fairly unremarkable example of emo--a descendant of punk rock in which political lyrics and noise have been exchanged for plaints about brokenhearted boys and their anonymous girlfriends--and evolved into a famous act that sings about the mechanics of celebrity. The group's second album, "Take This to Your Grave" (2003), appeared on an independent punk-rock label called Fueled by Ramen--the name refers to the marginal existences of touring bands--and the drummer, Andy Hurley, still claims to be a vegan anarchist. ("My whole thing is I'm not into civilization as a whole," he recently told Rolling Stone.) "From Under the Cork Tree" and "Infinity on High" were released by a major label, Island Records; the first song on "Infinity" is called "Thriller," after the biggest-selling album of all time. It begins with some cheerleading by the rapper Jay-Z, the C.E.O. of Def Jam, Island's sister label: "We dedicate this album to anybody people said couldn't make it. To the fans that held us down till everybody came around, welcome. It's here." The album is deeply pleasurable, consisting of compressed, torqued-up rock songs that rarely detour into instrumental passages and return single-mindedly to choruses that range from the reasonably hummable to the eminently hummable. Like the band's other albums, "Infinity" is the product of an atypical division of labor, between the husky blond guitarist and singer Patrick Stump, who composes the rapidly shifting, unabashedly melodic music (he's a fan of soul, and warms up for shows by singing Nat King Cole's version of "Almost Like Being in Love"), and Wentz, whose clever lyrics rely on pop-culture references. ("A Little Less 'Sixteen Candles,' a Little More 'Touch Me' " is the name of a song from "Cork Tree.") Many people who have never heard Fall Out Boy know that Wentz has been romantically linked with starlets like Michelle Trachtenberg and Lindsay Lohan, and that last year nude pictures that Wentz took of himself with his Sidekick made their way onto the Internet. Wentz spends almost as much time online as the band's fans do. As he said in a recent interview, "I blog pretty hard." Fall Out Boy retains some formal connections to punk--the generally rapid tempos and distorted guitars will be familiar to anyone who has heard Green Day or Blink-182--but, with a few tweaks, Stump's songs could work perfectly well as country or R. & B. numbers. His vocals are open-throated and powerful, a bit reminiscent of eighties New Wave singers like Howard Jones, though his belting style suggests that of a musical-theatre performer. Wentz's lyrics can be cynical and sour--"We're the new face of failure, prettier and younger but not any better off " is a line from "I'm Like a Lawyer with the Way I'm Always Trying to Get You Off (Me & You)"--but Stump sings them on bended knee, seemingly incapable of insincerity. Reviewers have compared the band to groups as varied as the Backstreet Boys and Kiss, which is a good indication of Fall Out Boy's omnivorous approach. Unlike the Backstreet Boys, Fall Out Boy's members write their own material, and, unlike Kiss, all four musicians are technically expert players. Like both bands, however, Fall Out Boy is determined to be as entertaining as possible. (The songs often sound like epic ballads by Journey.) Frere-Jones, Sasha. 'Fear Factor-- Infinity on High by Fall Out Boy'. The New Yorker, March 12, 2007 vol. 83 issue.3, p86

emo

Recently someone added emo as a genre and then it was removed. Why not keep it? If you search "fall out boy emo" on google news there are numerous results referring to them as emo.--Taylornate (talk) 06:07, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Same reason the Brandon Hamm thing went on for so long, WP:COI from the fanboy who probably doesn't like the title.
I'm not saying you can't be a fan of the band and edit this page (I actually own all of their albums), but NoReplyHaha seems to take it a little far. -Jer Hit me up 06:23, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm removing the reference, it's already referenced in the article itself, and looks kinda tacky in the genre box. -Jer Hit me up 00:15, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
...and the genre debate is revisited again, after years of agreement that they're not "emo." Even the band says they aren't. Maybe you should read this, the great genre debate revisited here, this too, this, discussion comments here ad a little bit here and think about it. The argument has spanned hundreds of essays already. Noreplyhaha (talk) 06:04, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've skimmed through all of the past talk sections that you linked to and found most of the discussion to be irrelevant as it does not relate to Wikipedia policy. If you pay attention to the points backed by policy you will see the consensus is to keep the designation of emo along with the others. The main issue is WP:V. By the way, it is considered bad manners to change what other people have written on talk pages as you have done with the title of this section.--Taylornate (talk) 06:37, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I can't be bothered to read everything you linked, though I did skim a few things, and it seemed a lot of them agreed on the genre "emo". What the band says doesn't even matter. I'm sure I've said this before but look at My Chemical Romance. There is a section there about how their vocalist hates the term emo, and doesn't consider the band emo at all. However, several verifiable sources say they are, and that is why the genre remains. -Jer Hit me up 06:59, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You should skim through LaraLove's comments, she had great points; I read the entire archive two-three months ago. Lara was a big contributor to the page years ago and has since stopped due to too much editing controversy, kind of like me. It's such a shame that tabloids would label the band "emo" when they're not; bands like The Get Up Kids would be more "emo". Composer Patrick Stump doesn't even draw on those influences, his influences include the likes of David Bowie and Michael Jackson, not the sort of blink-182. Emo has been tagged here for reasons other than sound. Just maybe "emo" in their early beginnings with Evening Out with Your Girlfriend but that's more pop punk/punk rock. As is the fact that their music does not fall into the emo genre and there is sourced information mentioning that emo is being placed on bands not for their music but for their fashion style, showing of emotion (which means mainly Pete Wentz's eyeliner, dress code and hair), etc. For the purposes of this article, it needs to focus on musical genre and nothing more. Certainly all can be explained and sourced in the body. "Emo" shouldn't be completely cut out of the article, but it all needs to be explained. For the infobox, however, there is no appropriate place for emo. It is disputed, it is not reflected in their music and the template itself calls for generalization, something that is, unfortunately, ignored widespread across this project. Putting "emo" in the infobox takes the term out of context, for the purpose of the article it should be included in the musical style section or criticism/dispute. At the end of the day their sound (backed by many print sources) is pop punk. Even "I Don't Care" has been likened to glam rock and arena rock (not emo), with "I'm Like a Lawyer..." and "This Ain't a Scene, It's an Arms Race" have been compared to R&B and Maroon 5. A print source, "Finding Emo" by Jay Rath, Wisconsin State Journal: "...acts such as Fall Out Boy, Dashboard Confessional and My Chemical Romance all became known as emo, even though one could argue that there were differences in their music." Additionally, there is not even a clear definition of "emo" and it would take substantial prose in the article to qualify it. As I said, it should be discussed in the article but putting it the infobox is a misleading out-of-context summary, and there is a verifiable soure that backs up the sort-of misuse of the term. Noreplyhaha (talk) 06:44, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  1. When you say "kind of like me", are you saying you are a victim of controversy? While in the same edit repeating an action that I warned you is considered bad manners? Are you saying you are no longer editing this page? While your recent edit is what sparked this discussion? I'm confused, but if you are done editing this page then there is no need to continue this discussion.
  2. I'm not going to go through the archives again. If you summarize Lara's points here I will read them. If you link to them I will at least skim, but I don't think that would be as good for a clear discussion.
  3. I appreciate the effort you put into the rest of your post but it is all meaningless if you do not relate it to Wikipedia policy. Please become familiar with WP:V. To summarize: If there are good sources referring to the band as emo, then for our purposes the band is emo whether it is true or not.--Taylornate (talk) 21:31, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I saw Jer's reply to my post and replied to that while changing the section heading, I missed your comment at that time. No, I'm not completely done with editing the page. My points integrated with some of Lara's are in my comment above, also dealing with your last point. Yes, it integrates Wikipedia:Verifiable. Noreplyhaha (talk) 12:00, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. Could you be a bit more direct in your application of policy? If you mean this: "there is a verifiable soure that backs up the sort-of misuse of the term" then I'd have to see the source but using it to remove emo sounds like WP:synthesis.--Taylornate (talk) 14:38, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This article on "emo" mentions that acts like Fall Out Boy are labeled "emo" despite differences in their music , and the Wikipedia page should be focusing on their sound, not what their fashion statement is. Noreplyhaha (talk) 06:45, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That article says the band is known as emo which supports keeping it in the article. Any conclusion that the article does not explicitly state would be WP:synthesis. If you are going to make a claim as to what the article should or should not focus on, then you need to cite Wikipedia policy. This is my fourth time in this discussion asking you to do so.--Taylornate (talk) 13:51, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This Wikipedia policy mentions what infoboxes should contain. Data should be "comparable" and "concise." My source above and argument is being completely ignored. You haven't shown one source that explains why they're labeled emo, and this Wikipedia page uses a source from 2006 that calls them "emocore" which isn't even "emo." Music media has taken to labeling every band with any variation of long titles, black hair, eyeliner, hoodies, emotional lyrics and whatever trait they have, as emo. Nothing in policy says that every genre they possibly fall into has to be listed in the infobox. My source is evidence for the use of the term requiring necessary explanation, and there is no room in the infobox to qualify it.Noreplyhaha (talk) 06:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  1. I don't follow your point about the infobox needing to be concise. Emo is concise.
  2. I addressed your argument above by telling you it is moot without application of WP policy.
  3. Per WP:V, we only need to show that they are called emo. We do not need a source explaining why.
  4. That source could easily be replaced with one of many others that call them emo, such as the one I put in the infobox and was removed.
  5. Again, if there are good sources calling them emo, then that is enough to include it.
  6. Your source is not WP policy and does not constrain us. As I said, that would be WP:SYNTH.--Taylornate (talk) 06:42, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The infobox is about their music, and I have a source that says although Fall Out Boy has been labeled emo, an individual can argue differences in their music from the labeled genre. This places the emo tag in dispute and requires text to qualify it, and infoboxes are required to be an "at-a-glance" summary. Noreplyhaha (talk) 05:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You still wouldn't need to remove it from the box. You can leave it in the box and explain in the body of the article. That's what a summary is.--Taylornate (talk) 22:24, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A 'summary' is a shortened point of the body text, but the use of the term "emo" is not established in any of the the body paragraphs, and even if it was, wouldn't be representative.Noreplyhaha (talk) 10:44, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it is, and if it wasn't, you could add it. That's what I said.--Taylornate (talk) 14:15, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
From the article: "Fall Out Boy has also been described as pop rock[59] and emo[60] and cites emo group The Get Up Kids as an influence." How the term "emo" is (not correctly) applied to the band is not established in the article. Therefore putting emo in the infobox does not summarise the article properly. What I think is happening is: they're labelled emo but sources say that it's incorrect, but let's put it in the infobox as a summary anyway. Noreplyhaha (talk) 02:05, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What? That isn't what I said and I don't really understand what you are saying.--Taylornate (talk) 06:27, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We have a source that says that Fall Out Boy's music is not "emo." What if we had many sources calling them "death metal" and then there's one that says they aren't death metal at all. Would we stick the death metal claim in the infobox? Noreplyhaha (talk) 02:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I personally hate this policy because it allows things like this, but WP:VNT pretty much says, if there is a verifiable source for it, than its acceptable to add it, so yes, if there were many sources that said they were death metal, despite it being beyond obvious that they aren't, it would be allowed in the infobox.
What if we have a verifiable source that mentions that the band is called "emo" but don't have that in their music? I don't mean to completely omit the label but it can all be explained in the Musical Style section. This way it won't be completely right to put it in the infobox. Get what I'm going at? Noreplyhaha (talk) 05:16, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I got what you were saying before, and I'm pretty sure I've said it already (too lazy to look back at all we've said) I think just having it in the musical style section is perfectly fine, its not one of their defining genres, the current ones were fine. I'm not opposed to removing it from the infobox. -Jer Hit me up 05:24, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rejoining this discussion got me in the mood to watch random FOB videos, and I came across this [1].. where Patrick clearly says they were an emo band. Again, still don't care whether it stays in the infobox or not, just thought it would be something interesting to add to the discussion. -Jer Hit me up 06:32, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If it isn't even a defining genre then why does it need to be included? 'Pop punk' pretty much sums it all up, then Infinity and Folie have more 'pop rock' and 'alternative rock' to them. Noreplyhaha (talk) 11:16, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've watched and read many other interviews of Patrick Stump. He didn't know what "emo" was when people started labelling his band that in the mid 2000s. He thought it was a mispelling of "elmo" (as I did too). He doesn't care what the group is labelled as long as they made the music that they felt was fun. If you look at the band now (they're on hiatus and not broken up so are technically still current), Stump is pop/R&B "smart pop", Wentz went electropop/electro dance, and Hurley and Trohman joined hard rock and hardcore punk bands. How "emo" does that sound? (rhetorical question). Noreplyhaha (talk) 11:16, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The way you are deciding it's not a defining style sounds like WP:OR.--Taylornate (talk) 13:09, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are heaps of sources that call it only "pop punk". Noreplyhaha (talk) 22:04, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Same for emo...--Taylornate (talk) 23:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It goes on...I found This

Regarding using Mr Hamm's comment on a newspaper blog as a source, I cite this Wikipedia policy.

"Never use posts left by readers as sources."

Noreplyhaha (talk) 06:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I believe WP:ABOUTSELF is an exception. We aren't citing some random reader of that paper, we are citing Brandon Hamm himself. If you disagree then maybe we should ask for mediation.--Taylornate (talk) 06:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I believe "Never use posts left by readers as sources" negates the self-published policy. It states readers, not some random reader, and reader includes Hamm. Noreplyhaha (talk) 06:28, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've posted on WP:3 because this isn't going to get anywhere with you two. Here is a link to the previous discussion on the same topic, for whoever views this from the Third Opinion. -Jer Hit me up 06:39, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks.--Taylornate (talk) 06:44, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, guys, I'm here from the 3O noticeboard. It's pretty hard to follow the thread of this discussion, since there are no recent edits to the mainspace article that I can look at, but let me just summarize what I understand the problem to be: someone put a statement that Brandon Hamm is a former member of Fall Out Boy, using this comment on a newspaper blog as a source. Another editor removed it as unreliably sourced, and argument happened over whether the source is indeed reliable or not.

If I have that right (please correct me if I don't), then my third opinion is that the source is not acceptable to support the statement. I'd like to sidestep the whole mess about whether WP:NEWSBLOG overrides WP:SPS (I don't think it always does, but neither here nor there) by pointing out this: per WP:SPS, a self-published source is acceptable as long as "it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source". The newspaper blog post is talking about the Chicago artistic community and the impact of regulations on it. It makes the Fall Out Boy claim only in support of this unrelated issue. If the main point of the blog post was that he was a member of Fall Out Boy at some point, then this conversation would be worth having, but it's not, so I don't think we can rely on it. I'd also say that there are some possible issues with "unduly self-serving," since he's using it to support his argument, and maybe "reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;" we have no evidence whatsoever that it actually is him (unlike the evidence we would have with Twitter posts) so it makes the source at best shaky.

TL;DR: my 3O is that the source is unreliable per WP:SPS point 3.

Thanks for trying to improve Wikipedia! Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for taking the time to comment here. I agree with your summary of the disagreement. I disagree with your interpretation of WP:ABOUTSELF point 3. I think your interpretation is interesting though, and maybe we will need to ask for clarification at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability. I think the intent is not to constrain reference to the entire source, but to pieces of information within the source. For example, this would not be an appropriate reference for information on economics of the arts but would be appropriate for what I have used it for here. If the intent is truly to make the entire post an inappropriate reference then I'd be a bit confused about the reasoning behind it. I acknowledge that you made a few other points and I'm willing to discuss them, but I'll defer so we can focus on your main point.--Taylornate (talk) 15:55, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'll readily admit that I'm not 100% sure of my own interpretation of it, either. When I first read it, my reaction was as I described above; subsequent readings of it made me second-guess myself a bit, but I still feel reasonably comfortable in my argument, and I'm not really sure I follow your logic for its meaning, either, to be honest. The real point that I'm trying to make is that the sourced comment seems to say that Hamm was part of Fall Out Boy only in passing; it seems to make sense to me that such a statement would be less supportive, less official if you will, than a comment on some article saying, "I, Brandon Hamm, am a former member of Fall Out Boy. EOM" The latter has clear intent and meaning, whereas the former could be a mere exaggeration or stretching of the truth to prove a rhetorical point. In the source, his point isn't that he's a member of Fall Out Boy; his point is some other irrelevant stuff, so he's probably not too worried about the literal truth and/or ramifications of his "ex-Fall Out Boy" statement. That is, I think, the logic to which SPS3 is appealing. If you disagree, I am all for a clarification request; as I said, I'm not fully sold on my interpretation of it, either. I guess it all boils down to what the word "directly" refers to, and how strictly we interpret it.
However, I also think that the other concerns about the source that have been raised are valid. At this point, I don't think there are any WP policies that are *definitively* broken with this, but there are quite a few that are bent just shy of breaking. I think that this is a time for some editorial discretion (especially since we're down to parsing the specific language of the rule text), which I'm sure is why there's some controversy about it. Given how this is our only source for the assertion, given its shade-of-gray (at best) usability, and (not least) the fact that it's been challenged by fellow editors in good standing, I'd say we're better off erring on the side of caution and leaving it out of the article unless (or until) we find a better source for it. Thanks as always, Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:54, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Now that the holiday is over I should be able to respond within the next day or so. Sorry for the delay.--Taylornate (talk) 02:21, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This particular issue has become moot. Hamm has agreed to set up a verified Twitter account and make a public post about this. It should happen soon.--Taylornate (talk) 22:27, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That would fall under "Unduly self-serving." -Jer Hit me up 22:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How so? He's not asking for money, hasn't been in the music business since he left, and has no plans to return. It's not going to further his career in medicine or ethics. He's only doing it so the truth can be known. If he had any ulterior motive he'd be making some noise about it yet our discussions have made it clear that publicly he's mentioned it only a single time in passing.--Taylornate (talk) 23:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The way you put it, he will be making a twitter account solely to support his claim that he was a member of fall out boy. Is that not self-serving?
Also, he won't be able to verify his twitter account, so I'm still not sure if that can be used as a source. -Jer Hit me up 00:12, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's a non-sequitor. If you don't know what the terms undue and self-serving mean then please look them up.[2][3] If after that you still feel the same way, then explain why—I don't think the burden is on me here. The entire reason I asked him to do this is because according to Writ Keeper's interpretation, the main reason the current source is unusable is precisely because its purpose was not solely to support his claim. So the moving target has taken a rather silly turn.
From earlier discussion it was mentioned that Twitter accounts can be verified. You're right, not just anyone can get a verified account. I'm open to suggestions on other ways for him to get a verified message out.--Taylornate (talk) 00:54, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just sticking a comment here to prevent the still open section from being archived. Noreplyhaha (talk) 02:50, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lead trimming

The lead has been recently heavily condensed. I think it is too short. I want your opinion on the changes.

Before: Fall Out Boy is an American rock band from Wilmette, Illinois, formed in 2001. The band consists of vocalist, guitarist and composer Patrick Stump, bassist and lyricist Pete Wentz, guitarist Joe Trohman, and drummer Andy Hurley. The band released five studio albums from 2003–2008. The group announced an indefinite hiatus in late 2009 asserting that it has not broken up, rather that the members are taking a rest and engaging in various side projects. Fall Out Boy was ranked the 93rd Best Artist of the 2000–10 decade by Billboard.[2]

With Pete Wentz as the band's primary lyricist and Patrick Stump as the primary composer, Fall Out Boy broke out of the underground music scene and reached mainstream success with their major label debut, From Under the Cork Tree. Released in 2005 as the follow-up to their 2003 effort Take This to Your Grave, the album won several awards and achieved double platinum status after selling more than 2.5 million albums in the United States. It spawned two top ten hits: the double platinum certified lead single "Sugar, We're Goin Down" which reached number eight on the US Billboard Hot 100 and the platinum "Dance, Dance". The group headlined tours around the world in 2005 and 2006 to support their record. In 2007, Fall Out Boy released their follow-up album, Infinity on High, to major chart success, debuting at number one on the Billboard 200 and selling 260,000 copies in its first week, with top five chartings worldwide. Infinity contained the hits "This Ain't a Scene, It's an Arms Race" and "Thnks fr th Mmrs". The group released Folie à Deux in 2008 and further evolved their musical pallete.

Fall Out Boy announced an indefinite hiatus in late 2009, leading to breakup rumors. Since then, Stump explained that Fall Out Boy never broke up and are simply "on a break" while the members work on other projects[3] and commented that "Fall Out Boy is just not planning anything right now. I would be very, very surprised if we don’t do another record again". With the release of their 2009 greatest hits album, Believers Never Die - Greatest Hits, and in regard to the legacy of the band, Allmusic senior-editor Stephen T. Erlewine wrote that Fall Out Boy "seems like one of the quintessential mainstream rock singles bands of the 2000s."[4]

The members of Fall Out Boy have pursued various side projects during the band's hiatus. Singer and guitarist Patrick Stump announced his solo project in January 2010, and released his debut full-length studio album, Soul Punk, on October 18, 2011. Preceding it is an extended play titled Truant Wave. Guitarist Joe Trohman and drummer Andy Hurley formed The Damned Things, a heavy metal supergroup with members from Anthrax and Every Time I Die, and have released their debut album, Ironiclast (2010). Bassist Pete Wentz started an experimental/electropop band called Black Cards with lead singer Bebe Rexha and the group have been working on their debut album.

Now: Fall Out Boy is an American rock band from Wilmette, Illinois, formed in 2001. The band consists of vocalist, guitarist and composer Patrick Stump, bassist and lyricist Pete Wentz, guitarist Joe Trohman, and drummer Andy Hurley.

With Pete Wentz as the band's primary lyricist and Patrick Stump as the primary composer, Fall Out Boy broke out of the underground music scene and reached mainstream success with their major label debut, From Under the Cork Tree. Released in 2005 as the follow-up to their 2003 effort Take This to Your Grave, the album won several awards and achieved double platinum status after selling more than 2.5 million albums in the United States. In 2007, Fall Out Boy released their follow-up album, Infinity on High, to major chart success, debuting at number one on the Billboard 200 and selling 260,000 copies in its first week, with top five chartings worldwide. The group released Folie à Deux in 2008 and further evolved their musical pallete.

The group announced an indefinite hiatus in late 2009 asserting that it has not broken up, rather that the members are taking a rest and engaging in various side projects. Fall Out Boy was ranked the 93rd Best Artist of the 2000–10 decade by Billboard.[2] Noreplyhaha (talk) 02:54, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The lead should be a concise summary and I support the trimming. You should really just hit the most important topics with maybe one sentence each. There should not be a lot of explaining or support of each idea.--Taylornate (talk) 02:26, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think a few breakthrough singles should be touched on, one or three were significant. Noreplyhaha (talk) 02:54, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How much coverage they have in the body of the article determines whether or not they should be in the lead.--Taylornate (talk) 02:07, 18 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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