Talk:Lesbian utopia: Difference between revisions

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There's been some discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Lesbian race about this article, particularly about whether race is appropriate in its name, & questions about original research & sourcing/verifiability for it. It seems appropriate to continue the discussion here, but interested editors should probably take a look at that discussion first. Or maybe we can copy if over to here? I'd do it, but gotta run! I will check in later. --Yksin 01:38, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The concept of "lesbian race" is absolutely deserving of a philosophical dialogue. Yet this page loses academic/scholarly credibility in the last section, "Reality". Here, the tone shifts far from expository writing with regard to the reality of such a concept. The use of the word "overcome" patently connotes a preference for such a reality, perhaps even hopefulness, that the disregard of ethics is a noble struggle toward truth. Instead, I would encourage the author to discuss the scientific and probablistic reasoning for which the ultimate outcome of the genetic intervention would favor the Y chromosome, and then outline the underlying ethical debate in a separate section.

Thereelghostbuster 02:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)KC[reply]

I don't think "race" is an appropriate term here. Lesbian separatist and lesbian utopia, yes. Why race? There's no racial aspect to lesbians. --Moni3 02:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Moni3[reply]

• This article should be renamed IMHO. Lesbian race could mislead readers in many ways.

• I think an article with this kind of content would be helpful.

• However, I have WP:V and WP:OR worries about the conclusions the text draws. I tend to agree with the conclusions, but I think they're not at all helpful here unless supported by direct citations from secondary sources.

• I agree that some of the wording in the text implies advocacy (WP:SOAPBOX) which could also distract some readers.

Cheers! Gwen Gale 15:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, "race" is a problematic enough term when it's applied to black/white/Asian/etc. And since lesbians come from every "race" & ethnic group, the idea of a "racial group" called "lesbian"... well, it just doesn't work. I must agree with Theree1ghostbuster that the article in its current form has WP:NPOV issues. Really, it also has notability issues: is there, in fact, some actual & significant movement or scientific proposal or project to develop means by which women could reproduce without men? Unless there is such a movement or project, as documented in reliable sources, then there's no notability to an article discussing such a movement. We do know, though, that there is a significant literature which has explored the possibilities of lesbian utopias including the reproductive strategies used by such communities, which thus gives us something to "hang our hat on" with regard to discussing such theoretical lesbian societies, complete with male-less reproduction. --Yksin 16:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is some stirring up of thought about lesbian utopias including the reproductive strategies used by such communities, yes. The citations in the article at least hint at this. I think the topic is notable, but my worries have been how to wrap, write and name an article about it on this public wiki. Gwen Gale 17:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do you feel better about the notability issues & how the article should be written if it were called "Lesbian utopia", or based on the discussion we're having here? --Yksin 17:55, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree perhaps "Lesbian race" wasn't quite right, I suggest a move to either of the below. You can't ague with the science, and all sections are very important, I fail to see how it isn't neutral, how is it biased? I do however agree with your point on the use of "overcome" in the Reality section, this I will change. (User765 18:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC))[reply]

• Support (I also support other renaming proposals) Gwen Gale 15:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article "lesbian reproductive biology" to me implies how lesbians go about getting pregnant and having children: turkey basters, IVF, etc. This article addresses how all-female societies, mostly in animals, reproduce. Lesbianism as the sexual and romantic attraction to women is not necessarily a factor in that. Is there a term that would be more appropriate, like "Reproduction without males" if the focus of the article is mainly on biology? Or if there is to be a more inclusive article, should it address radial lesbian separatism and have this biological aspect a portion of that article? --Moni3 15:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Moni3[reply]

I think turkey basters would be more like Lesbian reproductive strategies. That said, so far lesbian reproductive biology is the only term I've thought of so far which isn't an unsupportable neologism. Sadly, it is not short 'n sweet. :( As for putting this in Lesbian separatist, there are also non-separatist lesbians who would likely embrace this kind of thing. Gwen Gale 15:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For that matter, there are straight women or women who consider themselves asexual who would embrace it too. --Moni3 16:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Moni3[reply]

I like Yksin's idea more than mine. Gwen Gale 16:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. "Lesbian reproductive biology" implies that there is some biological difference between lesbians & other women when it comes to reproduction. If this article is to go in the direction of "how can/do women (or other animals) reproduce without male sperm," then "same-sex reproductive biology" or something of that nature would be a more appropriate title. The originator of the article (who I wish we would hear from) seemed to be going in the the direction of "Lesbian utopia" given the article's current lead, which reads "Lesbian race, or lesbian utopia, refers a conceptual community made entirely of women whom are not dependent on men for anything, most notably reproduction." --Yksin 16:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. As is probably obvious from my comment above, this is the move/rename I support. It would support addition of information about a significant body of lesbian & feminist literature which explores all-female societies, many of which also explore reproductive strategies of those societies, which the biological information already in this article lends support to. It also seems to reflect the article originator's intent with this article, as indicated in the article's current first sentence, ""Lesbian race, or lesbian utopia, refers a conceptual community made entirely of women whom are not dependent on men for anything, most notably reproduction," which hopefully would lead to User765 (talk · contribs) collaborating with other editors who've been drawn to this article. Another possibility might be Lesbian separatism (which currently redirects to Separatist feminism; but I think that article be developed as mainly as a historical treatment of lesbian separatism --Yksin 16:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Gwen Gale 16:55, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Support --Moni3 17:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Moni3[reply]

It might be useful to compile a list of books, stories, etc. that contain all female societies, esp. if they also discuss the reproductive strategies used by those societies. Please feel free to add to it. Don't restrict to the English language. If you know of other sources (nonfiction, theoretical, etc.) which touches on these questions, please include them. --Yksin 17:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is, like, more than 3 women, right? Women who make it a point to live in all-female societies, or are stranded in all-female socies. Are we also including prison and convents? --Moni3 17:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Moni3[reply]

Yes, more than three women. I think that also can widen the scope to real-life all-female societies such as those created by lesbian separatists, but again, I think we should have two articles -- Lesbian utopia & Lesbian separatism, the first which is about the more "speculative" ideas as depicted especially in literature, & the other focusing on the history & current manifestations of lesbian separatism -- which goes as wide as the politics of the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival or lesbian communes, etc. I don't think we should included, whether in this list or in those articles, prisons & convents -- one which is a coercive rather than voluntary community where a lot of the sexuality is distorted by that; & the other with is a presumably nonsexual religious community (though of course we know from the classic nonfiction study Lesbian Nuns that there's lot of lesbianism there, just like in the military). The intent of those societies is a lot different. --Yksin 17:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wtf are socies? Why do I spell like that sometimes? Anyway, what about boarding schools and sororities? --Moni3 17:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Moni3[reply]

I'd say that they also have a different intent. Maybe I should have titled this section "Books/stories/etc. with all-female lesbian societies", I dunno... basically, the idea is, an all-female society which fit the ideal of "lesbian utopia", in which the primary affectional/sexual relationships are between women. This would leave out of this list, for example, The Gate to Women's Country by Sheri S. Tepper, which posits women & men living separately, but still all sexual relationships are heterosexual -- in fact, according to the article on that book, "it also depicts homosexuality as a genetic and hormonal disorder which has been eugenically removed from the population." (Which turned me off from reading the book, struck me as homophobic, though I have enjoyed other Tepper novels.) --Yksin 18:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC) BTW, I took my B.A. from a women's college (Wellesley) -- also not within my meaning here. We had a lot of dykes there, but that's not what the organizing purpose of the college was, & most of the students were, as they are in the rest of society, heterosexual. --Yksin 18:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Herland by Charlotte Perkins Gilman
• Daughters of a Coral Dawn series by Katherine V. Forrest
• Don't hit me - Wonder Woman and her Amazons
• The Wanderground by Sally Miller Gearhart

A classic, first published by the lesbian publisher Persephone Press way back in the days. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• The Holdfast Chronicles by Suzy McKee Charnas (Walk to the End of the World (1974), Motherlines (1978), The Furies (1994), The Conqueror's Child (1999)

I have all of these -- even wrote a review of the first two for Gay Community News (Boston) when I was in college. I haven't read The Conqueror's Child yet, though. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Gaea trilogy by John Varley (Titan (1979), Wizard (1980), Demon (1984)

Written by a man, but he's got strong female characters (a Varley trait), & two major characters come from an all-female society which gets a lot of discussion. There's also a lesbian relationship between the two major characters, Cirocco Jones & Gaby Plauget (though Cirocco is not exclusively lesbian). --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• A Door into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski

SatyrTN wrote "Don't forget A Door into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski (and in fact her other books in the "Daughter of Elysium" series." Yes! Love that book. Sclonczewski isn't herself a lesbian, to my knowledge, but the society depicted in that novel certainly is. She's also a Professor of Biology at Kenyon University College. Her web page there has a link to a page at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute on "teach[ing] ahead of the textbook" on Reproduction: Molecular and Cellular Biology, which might be mined for good sources/info for this article. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• The Female Man by Joanna Russ

Another classic. Three Four different women who "might" be the "same" woman. One of them comes from the planet Whileaway, where a disease caused the men to die out; the women worked out reproductive strategies to continue on. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Les Guérillères by Monique Wittig

Another classic. I haven't read it, but I think it's an all-female society. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Ammonite (1993) by Nicola Griffith

Winner of the James Tiptree, Jr. Award and the Lambda Award. This is also a planet where disease wiped out the men, or at least most of them. The James Tiptree, Jr. Award has to do with explorations of gender in speculative fiction (science fiction) that more or less explode gender myths; in the case of Ammonite, Griffith was lauded by judges for depicting an all-female society which avoided romanticizing such a society as necessarily all peaceful & sweet & nurturing -- there were some pretty violent characters in it. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Vassar stories (a collection of stories set in Vassar from 1905-1915 I read once when God was a child.--Moni3 17:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Moni3[reply]
• Gormglaith (novel) Depicts an all female society in which people mix their genes together through technology to have normal pregnancies. Gwen Gale 18:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Feminist Utopias (1989) by Frances Bartkowski.

Critical evaluation of several feminist utopias. I'm familiar with some but not all of them, so don't know if all of these posit all-female societies. But I have this book, so I can find out. She discusses: Charlotte Perkins GilmanHerland, Les Guérillères by Monique Wittig, The Female Man by Joanna Russ, Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy (does not posit an all-female society), Walk to the End of the World and Motherlines by Suzy McKee Charnas, Archaos, ou le jardin étincelant by Christine Rochefort, A Weave of Woman by E.M. Broner, The Eugelionne by Louky Bersianik, The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]