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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Final Fantasy IV

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ryu Kaze (talk | contribs) at 15:45, 19 September 2006 (→‎[[Final Fantasy IV]]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Final Fantasy IV

Was nominated and failed in March, but was fixed up a lot by a collaborative effort of people who worked on the other Final Fantasy FAs and the Chrono ones.

Here's the failed nomination: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Final Fantasy IV/Archive 1

  • Co-nom and support. This article's references have gone up to seventy six and the prose was fixed. I was also asked to tell you that if you have an objection, the problems will be corrected swiftly and zealously. Sir Crazyswordsman 19:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Co-nom/support; solid article, generally on par with the others; prose is a little "meh" in a couple paragraphs, but it's nitpicking. I believe it passes FAC quite well. — Deckiller 22:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed Judgesurreal777 04:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, again. Sir Crazyswordsman 06:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Image:Ff4jbox.gif is missing a source. Thunderbrand 15:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Also fixed :) Judgesurreal777 17:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Copyediting:

  • "Characters move and interact with people and enemies on a field map, which usually depicts a single area——such as a tower or forest."
  • "The ESRB rated it (Everyone 10 and older) and the CERO designated it for all ages." (should say the ESRB rated it "E" (Everyone 10 and older)...)

Awkward sentences:

  • Magic is divided into "White" (healing and support) magic; "Black" (offensive) magic; and "Summon" (or "call") magic, used to summon monsters for offensive or specialized applications. (sentence is overly complex and doesn't flow well. overuse of parenthetical phrases makes a sentence hard to read.)
  • An early Super Nintendo game, Final Fantasy IV contained graphics improved over past Final Fantasy titles and concurrent Super Nintendo games. (use of conjunction is ambiguous: did FF4 contain other Super Nintendo games? sentence should probably be divided into two sentences or reworded.)
  • They meet Tellah along the way, who shares their destination in search of his daughter Anna. (prepositional phrase fits direct object, but not the verb, i.e. it sounds like they are also in search of his daughter. should be rewritten, possibly as two sentences.)

Need to use "logical quoting" per the Manual of Style:

  • Most of Final Fantasy IV takes place on Earth, also known as the "Blue Planet."
  • The world contains both an "Upper World" and an "Underground."

Redundantcy:

  • "an elite air force unit of airships" (wouldn't "elite unit of airships" be adequate?)

Awkward wording:

  • "Cecil awakes to find Kain absent" (more typical wording would be "wakes" or "awakens")
  • "they must surmount Mt. Hobs" (more typical wording would be "ascend" or "climb", especially before the word Mt.)

Grammar:

  • "Yang charters a ship to take him, Cecil, Edward, and Rydia to Baron" (should be "himself")
  • "Entitled Final Fantasy IV Advance, the Game Boy Advance port was released in North America by Nintendo of America on December 12, 2005, in Japan by Square Enix on December 15, 2005, and in Europe on June 2, 2006." (needs semicolons)
  • "released in Japan on March 27 2002" (missing a comma)

Hope that helps. I only looked through a few random sections to find those, so there are probably more problems that a thorough proofreading would reveal. Kaldari 18:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I went in and fixed the vast majority of your edits, and looked through the rest of the article, and I would agree with you in some places (which I fixed earlier). However, I need some help with the WP:MOS concerns you brought up. How exactly should I treat in-game definitions (which have been explained and, of course, referenced). Sir Crazyswordsman 18:30, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The Manual of Style recommends "logical" quoting: "When punctuating quoted passages, include the punctuation mark inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation mark is part of the quotation ("logical" quotations)." What this means is that if the puctuation mark is part of what is being quoted, include it inside the quotation marks, otherwise put it outside the quoation marks. Kaldari 23:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
All problems solved. Sir Crazyswordsman 23:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral - The story section is far too long. Three paragraphs should be more than enough to summarize the plot. If you want to keep the current description, then please move it to another article, and use summary style here. This isn't an issue of article length, but of relevance. An encyclopedia article's job is not to give excessive detail on a video game plot. Thanks. --Taitcha 17:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please see the pop culture FACs promoted over the last 2-3 months. Also, I noticed you just recently restarted editing; there has been a general shift in what is necessary for comprehensiveness. An encyclopedia's job is to be comprehensive; the story section leaves out many of the minor details as it is. — Deckiller 17:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • All our other FAs have similar length story. Sir Crazyswordsman 17:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I can understand your worries about people wanting longer/shorter plot details. However, it seems a simple solution to me to have a sub-article with the full plot version, and a summary here. Can't everyone be happy that way? --Taitcha 17:13, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • We didn't start the trend; we followed it. Sir Crazyswordsman 17:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • The problem with subarticles is that they will cause another camp of users to state that there should not be story-exclusive articles. — Deckiller 17:28, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Is that a problem you've experienced, or is it just something you're anticipating? Personally, I don't imagine anyone would complain about such a sub-article, and I think it would be a positive new trend. --Taitcha 17:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • We've had some problems with it in the past. Most of the subarticles that HAVE gotten praise are usually term lists. The thing is also that FFIV's story is one of the most in-depth in the series as far as progression, as there are many minor details (which we left out, for the record) which have SEVERE impact on the story. Look at some of the FFIV character articles on the Final Fantasy Wiki compared to the FFVI or FFVII ones there, and you'll see that their stories have much more importance to the overall plot. It's something I think that's beyond my control. It's for this reason that the story sections are now overloaded with references to the game itself. I should probably say this as the writer and primary referencer of the story section, which has actually been trimmed down (to my greatest impression) after I wrote it. Sir Crazyswordsman 17:49, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Well, I'm not too happy about the state of things, but out of respect for your efforts, I'll change my vote to Neutral. --Taitcha 17:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: This being the English Wikipedia, why is the lone battle sequence screen taken from the Japanese version of the game? I think it's much more accessible if readers see "Fight," and "Item" in the command list rather than Japanese characters. EDIT: On second glance, I see that Cecil is in the middle of using an item. Showing the command list at all would be more illustrative of the game's style of combat. --Tristam 20:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But the original game is japanese... Judgesurreal777 23:01, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Your point? We don't want a Japanese screenshot on an English Wikipedia. --TheEmulatorGuy 23:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Says who? We are not pushing some kind of English-only Wikipedia since this game is JAPANESE, and my point is that there is nothing wrong with including screenshots from the original game, regardless of its language. Judgesurreal777 23:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have an English one up in ten minutes. Sir Crazyswordsman 23:47, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It now has an English screen. Sir Crazyswordsman 23:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, CSM. Judge, I think the argument of originality versus accessibility is pretty weak. Final recommendation for CSM: I do like the separate infoboxes for the different versions of the game, but that section always has looked ugly. I think you can remove the FFChronicles infobox; after all, the game does have its own article. I think with that infobox out of the way and the text to help break apart the other infoboxes, it should be easier to move around the infoboxes in a more aesthetically pleasing fashion. --Tristam 00:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I just dont appreciate the terse and seemingly rude response from emulator guy when I was initially requesting clarification. Judgesurreal777 00:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize. Remember, the image is being used to describe the game mechanics. Since this is an English Wikipedia, the game mechanics cannot be fully described without an English screenshot, therefore bringing it out of fair use. --TheEmulatorGuy 00:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Emulator Guy and Tristam, I very much appreciate your civility :) And I do see your point, I suppose it is better for comprehension. Judgesurreal777 00:43, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. Sir Crazyswordsman 00:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Voted to support after complaints were addressed. Judge, I apologize for all the hoopla then. Great article though, guys. --Tristam 00:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much, Tristam. Sir Crazyswordsman 00:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is only one usage of the word "some" in the article (I believe I zapped most of the significant redundancies on the first and second passes; I'm a stiffler when it comes to redundancies). The intro seems to be on par with most of the pop culture FAs as of late, especially the final fantasies. Caption succinctness is one thing that I agree with. — Deckiller 02:34, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, for now. This is my favorite RPG ever, so I'd love to see this featured. I copy edited the article, but this allowed me to notice other, more fundamental problems:
    • First off, holy moly, the plot synopsis is long! The level of detail given simply isn't necessary; you don't need to mention every boss monster fight and every minor plot twist. I'd cut this section by 1/3 to 1/2.
    • Second, the sources used concern me. We've got the various versions of the game itself, the manuals, and some game magazines (all good), but then the rest of the sources are fan sites (rpgamer.com, allrpg.com, gamesarefun.com, the-magicbox.com, 1up.com, lostlevels.org, mobygames.com, ffcompendium.com, b-rock.netfirms.com, geocities.com/arcanelore2001/, and finalfantasy.neoseeker.com). Per WP:RS, these just don't cut it, especially for a featured article ("self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources").
    • Either incorporate the direct quotes from the game into the main text, or axe them. There's no need for direct quotations unless you want to add color to the article, and that should be done in the main body. — BrianSmithson 10:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There may be some issues with precedent here. Perhaps the plot can be cut by a third, but lately the trend has been to satisfy the comprehensiveness requirement of featured articles before worrying about length, which isn't a requirement. Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross are examples. Nearly all the featured CVG RPG articles do source quotes from the text in references, too, though I'm not sure if that's an official policy or what.
As for the sources, several of those are review sites that have been accepted with other articles. RPGamer, AllRPG, and GaF are credible reviewers supported by gamerankings.org. I think 1up.com is supposed to be a respected blog, but I don't know too much about it. The b-rock thing is a fan translation reference, so it's normal to have a fansite for that (like the Compendium and RPGOne at Chrono Trigger). Fan translations have also been decided to be notable on WP:CVG's talk page. The real use of the other sources listed is documenting the translation differences. No "real source" breaks down the details, yet this is still relevant information for readers. Unless someone can get IGN to run a special feature on the version changes, there's just no source for this unless we cite these. So not sure what to do about that.
I'm back from an unexpected break, so I'll be able to help with anything. --Zeality 12:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If you read some of the other comments above, and I've said this many times, you'll understand that a lot of your complaints are really just based on what the trends are. First of all, a lot of the sites you have problems with are actually well-respected sites within the community (and Zeality, 1UP.com is similar to IGN). Direct quotes from the game itself are required. It says somewhere that "in the story section, there should be a reference every two sentences from the story itself." Sir Crazyswordsman 15:30, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As I've been very busy lately and haven't really had time to check in, I can neither fairly support nor object at this time simply because I don't have time to read the entire article and give it due analysis, but I would like to comment on the matter of sources. RPGamer is a well known site that has been covering RPG news and reviews for 8 years, and was exclusively covering Square Co. (now Square Enix) games as Square Net for three years before that (some have said that it was even hosted on Square's own server when it was Square Net). In terms of notability, it's in one of the highest tiers.
As for 1UP.com, I can't imagine how that wouldn't qualify. The 1UP network is owned and operated by Ziff Davis Media, and is comprised of several publications, including — but not limited to — Electronic Gaming Monthly and Official U.S. PlayStation Magazine. If this doesn't qualify, nothing would. In fact, the 1UP article being used as a source was written by Jeremy Parish, a contributor to OPM and EGM.
For one of the others, as Zeality has mentioned, the b-rock reference is pretty much necessary given the nature of the information and the citation. I would also contest the notion that Neoseeker isn't a notable source. It's been around for 7 years and is quite well known. I don't really have time to look into or comment on the others, but any of them that are or are affiliated with RPGamer, CNET, Ziff Davis Media or IGN are definitely notable enough.
By the way, as for including quotes from the game itself, that's part of the manual of style, and is a practice not followed as religiously as it should be:
"Of course, out-of-universe information needs context; details of creation, development, etc. are more helpful if the reader understands a fictional element's role in its own milieu. This often involves using the fiction to give plot summaries, character descriptions or biographies, or direct quotations. This is not inherently bad, provided that the fictional passages are short, are given the proper context, and do not constitute the main portion of the article. If such passages stray into the realm of interpretation, secondary sources must be provided to avoid original research. Note that when using the fictional work itself to write these descriptions the work of fiction must be cited as a source. For instance, a video game article should cite the game text, but it should also cite a reliable secondary source when necessary."
That's the most I have to offer for the moment, I'm afraid. Good luck with the FAC. I hope I'll get time to come back by and offer some comments about the article itself. Ryu Kaze 15:45, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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