Talk:West Country

"the further West the less Easterly one would consider part of the region" um. right. Jafafa Hots 02:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

it means culturally, not just geographically. --Krsont 17:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

I snipped a lot of information out which may seem dramatic, but here are the reasons why:

1. The historical info is very interesting, but strictly speaking irrelevant to an article about the West Country, and certainly irrelevant to a section defining what counties the West Country includes. It should be in an article on Cornish history. The same applies to whether or not Cornish people consider themselves English. It assumes that to be part of the West Country is to be English. Cornwall is indubitably part of England, so I don't see how that works.

2. I found the wording of the paragraph hard to understand. It states that Cornwall (I assume its people) have a "distinct view", but it doesn't say what this view is. Also, what does "the exclusivity of what defines a West Country county" mean? I suspect (with no offence to the writer) that these are words for words sake.

I trust no one is offended by the change, and I apologise for any offense caused. 219.89.19.187 (talk) 08:02, 9 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Good call! However the phrase "Cornwall is considered by many" is unencyclopaedic / imprecise and really should be re-worded accompanied by a reference. --Cheesy Mike (talk) 08:57, 9 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. I agree that the phrase is imprecise. It's the best I could think up at the time. The problem is that "West Country" is an informal designation, so common understanding is the only basis for saying whether a county is or isn't in it. I shall try and think up an improvement; in the meantime, please feel free to alter. 122.57.187.208 (talk) 20:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Gloucestershire is in the Midlands. The guidelines are generally considered to be historical and modern cultural: Gloucestershire was never a core shire of the Kingdom of Wessex unlike the other counties (excluding Cornwall), and indeed the northern border of Wessex was generally held to be the River Thames and the Bristol Avon. Moreover, all but very southern Gloucestershire receives Midlands local broadcasting.

I'd disagree with that. Gloucester is regularly referred to as being in the west country by the media. I've even heard Hereford reffered to as a west country town, but that is much more rare. A quick Google search finds loads of references to Gloucester being in the west country. The problem with an informal area like this is that everyone will have their own definition of it and you can never conclusively say which borderline areas are in and which are out. Gasheadsteve 19:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)Reply

Gloucestershire certainly isn't in the Midlands offically, and in common use the vast majority of people I've heard refer to it as being in the west country or south west England. The fact it wasn't usually considered part of Wessex is irrelivant as this article is about the modern day west country. Also, the BBC West page and [1] would disprove your theory about the broadcasting, it can't be in both regions. As for culture, I'd consider Gloucestershire to have much more in common with Bristol, than Birmingham, for example. Marky-Son 22:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)Reply

I live in Gloucestershire, and its definately part of the West Country. The Midlands start at Worcestershire. Scibah

IMHO any talk of "Wessex" on here is a complete red herring...we are talking about a modern reality and not something that existed 1000+ years ago. It's a nice idea but to subscribe to the idea of any exact boundaries to something which by its very nature has for a millenium been amorphous borders on farce. I mean anyone in the rest of England knows what the West Country is and that has nothing to do with a "concept" which would include counties such as Oxfordshire or Berkshire.PS As a Gloucester person form a Goucester family I've never heard anyone seriously contend that the county is in the Midlands...whatever next Norfolk is in Yorkshire..well if we're going to talk rubbish we might as well extend it to the rest of the country... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.127.188 (talk) 00:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Gloucestershire is part of the West Country and absolutely not in the Midlands. 86.2.38.112 (talk) 14:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Reply

Gloucestershire is in the midlands, so are bristol and bath, saying otherwise is just ridiculous.----Greatestrowerever^{Talk Page} 11:51, 20 September 2008 (UTC)Reply

There is no such county as Avon anymore. Cardinal Wurzel 18:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

Agreed - it's Somerset now - so Avon should be removed. White43 (talk) 11:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

...but I've added City of Bristol back in. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:52, 2 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

"The area is mostly rural, with a few notable cities (principally Plymouth)"

Hmmm. What about Bristol, Exeter(Devon), Bournemouth/Poole(Dorset)?

Does anyone else think that the list of towns and cities is getting a bit long? Perhaps it should be restricted to cities only, and after each county have a link to it's list of towns (e.g. List of places in Cornwall). Any objections to this? At the very least I think we should remove some of the smaller towns from the list, like Calne and Totnes. Gasheadsteve 15:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

It cannot be resricted to just cities as Truro, Plymouth and Exeter are the only cities in the westcountry. (for whichever fool listed bristol as within the westcountry go look at an atlas!!!!) --Greatestrowerever 13:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

You find me an atlas with the Westcountry labelled on it and you're very lucky, it is an informal area. Bristol clearly is in the Westcountry. "For the ITV franchise, see Westcountry Television." Marky-Son 14:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

When I look up this word recently, a dictionary says West Country is "west of a line between Southhampton and the River Severn". This is a common definition that should be in Wiki article, or not?

I've never heard of this before. What part of the River Severn?! Depending on where the line would go, you could well be leaving out places like Swindon and Cheltenham, and certainly places west of the River Severn, like the Forest of Dean. Dividing up geographical areas in straight lines annoys me, unless it's an American state, it's just silly. Marky-Son 13:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Gloucestershire is not in the west country, wiltshire is not in the westcountry, bristol and bath are not in the westcountry, whoever wrote this article is a fool. ----Greatestrowerever^{Talk Page} 11:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)Reply

Nice to have such constructive comments. Fool indeed! --TimTay (talk) 12:43, 20 September 2008 (UTC)Reply

Good tim, i am glad you agree. We need to completely re-write this article removing places like Gloucestershire, wiltshire, bristol, bath and bournmouth. That map needs redoing as well because it is incredibally misleading and tottally inaccurate. ----Greatestrowerever^{Talk Page} 12:51, 20 September 2008 (UTC)Reply

I don't agree at all. Trouble is that there is no formal definition of West Country - and the article makes that clear. I just added two more examples which add to the confusion - the EU-sanctioned West Country Farmhouse Cheddar Cheese designation which can only be applied to cheese that come from four most south-westerly counties, and West Country Tourist Board which also covers Gloucestershire, Bristol, Bath and Wiltshire. I think it is right that the article features all definitions of what the West Country comprises. Your own strongly-voiced opinion could I suspect be argued equally strongly and opposite by someone from Gloucester, Swindon or Bristol. --TimTay (talk) 13:13, 20 September 2008 (UTC)Reply

I agree with most of TimTay's comments - but the reference to West Country Tourist Board is misplaced and I've reverted it. WCTB actually excluded Gloucestershire and SE Dorset - see this map, and changed its name to Tourism South West when it was reconstituted a few years ago to include those areas and so become coterminous with the Government's South West Region. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:15, 21 September 2008 (UTC)Reply

Pretty ignorant and petty if he's actually being serious. Although Bournemouth and Swindon are borderline, you can't get any more West Country than Bristol and Gloucestershire, even Herefordshire is considered West Country by some. His arguement is like a Geordie saying Liverpool and Manchester are not northern. The boundaries of "Westcountry Television" are not relevant. 82.5.208.124 (talk) 21:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)Reply

"you can't get any more West Country than Bristol and Gloucestershire" Ha Ha, you make me laugh, look at a map, you can get a good hundred miles west of bristol!!! The West country is Devon, Cornwall, West Somerset (west of Burnham) and West Dorset (e.g west of Lyme bay). ----Greatestrowerever^{Talk Page} 21:03, 5 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

The University of the West of England isn't in Penzance, it's in Bristol. You may laugh, but to some people "West Country" means anywhere west of, say, Reading. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:13, 5 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

The university of the west of england is, undoubtedly in the west of england. That doesn't mean it is part of the west country e.g the peninsula. Liverpool is in the west of england but i don't hear many people on here claiming that as part of the west country. ----Greatestrowerever^{Talk Page} 20:36, 9 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Agreed, but the basic problem is that everyone has a different definition of the "West Country". If you're in Devon, say, it may be "obvious" that the term West Country refers to the area down the peninsula, but if you're in, say, Bristol, there is often a different and wider definition which can include places like Gloucester and even Swindon. The point is that it is an informal term, with no clear boundaries, and the article needs to reflect that rather than seeking to argue that somewhere is definitely "in" the West Country and somewhere else is definitely not. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

What Swindon and Gloucester are definitely part of the West Country! Both culturally and geographically, we get West Country media here, like newspapers and tv, and the people here would say they were part of the west country, although we are on the border that doesn't mean we shouldn't be included. Jimjom (talk) 19:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimjom (talk • contribs) 19:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

I just reverted, as vandalism, changes made by Greatestrowerever. This user removed most of the content in the article relating to his/her dispute as set out in this section. Removing text, against the consensus of the other editors is vandalism, plain and simple - especially given this editors history of disruptive edits. --TimTay (talk) 22:10, 4 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

History of disruptive edits? are you serious? You need to look at a map my friend. ----Greatestrowerever^{Talk Page} 22:32, 4 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Yes I am very serious. As for looking at a map, there is one right at the start of this article which clearly shows the commonly accepted definition of the West Country. Opinion here on the talk page is quite clear. While there are differing opinions on what constitutes the West Country, this article should refer to the most common definition while making it clear that there are differences. I think it does a good job of doing that. Your contribution history on talk pages shows that you are often uncivil and that is not acceptable on Wikpedia - see WP:CIVIL. Please don't resort to personal attacks such as calling people fools or stupid. --TimTay (talk) 22:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

As with any article about "common usage" it is difficult to give specific definitions, but personally I would agree with the current state of the article including Gloucestershire, Bristol, Bath and Wiltshire, however I think further references to back up these inclusions would be useful.— Rod ^talk 20:48, 5 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Good thinking Rodw - I've added some examples and references. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

The map is mis-leading. It only shows one definition of the westcountry and as this talk page and the article itself shows there are more than one definition. The map should be changed to reflect the different definitions, possibly different shades or something. ----Greatestrowerever^{Talk Page} 22:46, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

The problem with that is that there would be an infinite number of "different definitions" - most people use the term in a pretty vague sense rather than having a clear view of boundaries, and the different approaches set out in the text can easily be comprehended from looking at the map anyway, in my opinion. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Is there some controvercy over the term Weat Country? It appears to only include the South West of England and not the West Midlands or the North West. I am from the West Midlands (region) which is in the west of England and I prefer to use the term South West when I am just refering to the South West. Also I don't know where the term West Country comes from. So do the South Westerners think of themselves as better than other Westerners or what? (Tk420 (talk) 15:03, 4 January 2009 (UTC))Reply

The term "West Country" is traditionally only used in the South West of England. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:02, 4 January 2009 (UTC)Reply

The West country is Devon, Cornwall, West Somerset (west of Burnham) and West Dorset (e.g west of Lyme bay)

No, the whole of Dorset is in the West Country and I think you'll find we(residents in Dorset) all think so too. I don't know one single person who would say it's 'West of Lyme Bay', which is an odd thing to say as Lyme REGIS is on the border with Devon. Sure, Bournemouth and Christchurch residents, having previously been part of Hampshire might say otherwise. As previous peoples have pointed out, there is no clear definition of the West Country and this article must reflect that. Instances of Gloucestershire and Wiltshire, Bristol and Bath have all been included in the West Country. White43 (talk) 11:42, 23 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

I'd certainly consider Herefordshire more West country than Midlands, culturally at least. The accent's the same, and there's also the strong link to cider. I've lived there most of my life and never felt any social tie with the Midlands. Depends how you define the West Country, really. Is it purely geographical, or cultural? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.93.76.130 (talk) 20:56, 3 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

Just because someone from Wiltshire or Gloustershire or Bristol says that they are from the Wes Country doesn't mean they are. I could just as easily claim that Cornwall is part of Wales, and get some companies to mention it on their products, and set up some websites about it, and even have some journalists refer to it as a region of Wales. This doesn't make it correct! The Westcountry is Devon, Cornwall and Western parts of Somerset and Dorset. Just because many inhabitants of bordering areas try to hop on the bandwagon doesn't mean they are. (And obviously there are going to be more sources from Bristol, Wiltshire etc.. as there are more people that live in these borderlands than there are in the West Country.) Ghmyrtle and TimTay both seem to have a vested interest in keeping references to these areas in this article - i would imagine that they are just these types of hangers on, probably from Bristol or Bournemouth, who want to try and make where they live seem more exciting by getting in with the West Country as opposed to not really coming from anywhere - a bit sad really. They also both strike me as the type of person who thinks that Colombo is the capital of Sri Lanka - just because some other people think it is - with out ever bothering to find out the truth! ----Greatestrowerever^{Talk Page} 21:35, 22 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

What criteria is being applied for the inclusion of towns in the notable towns and cities section? I see, for example, that Lyme Regis which has a population under 5,000 is included, as is Tewkesbury with a population of around 10,000. Can we agree on some clear criteria then review the list to ensure the right settlements are included?

I also suggest the section should be renamed to "Notable settlements"

Opinions? --Simple Bob (talk) 07:59, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

So here's my suggestions:

• All cities
• All county towns
• The top five settlements by population in each county which do not meet the above two criteria.

The advantage of using the latter is that it does not let the list length get out of control and it also ensures that principal settlements in more sparsely populated counties get featured. --Simple Bob (talk) 08:09, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Using the above criteria, as an example, Somerset would have Wells and Bath as cities, Taunton as the county town, then the top five settlements of Weston-super-Mare (71,000), Bridgwater (33,000), Yeovil (27,000), Frome (24,000) and Portishead (22,000). Total 8 entries. --Simple Bob (talk) 08:17, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

This seems like a useful approach, however seeing as there is little agreement about what the "West County" contains, getting agreement on these could also be difficult... and when you come to "places of interest" it is even more subjective.— Rod ^talk 09:37, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

I don't think such a strict approach would work for the reasons Rodw suggests. Is Portishead really more "notable" than Lyme Regis, say? (Is Portishead even in "Somerset"? - a debatable point. Administratively, it isn't.) Perhaps one way forward would be to include a list of urban areas by strict population size in the South West England article, and link to that list from here? Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:18, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

All good points, I just threw in my suggestion to get a discussion started. Another question then. Do we even need the notable settlements and visitor attraction sections at all given their subjectivity? --Simple Bob (talk) 10:22, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

(ec)This brings up the debate about Ceremonial counties of England v Unitary authorities - I thought the wp guideline was to use ceremonial counties. As far as population lists go there is still a problem - do we use civil parish, Combined statistical area, County borough, Metropolitan area or Larger Urban Zones etc & do we use data from United Kingdom Census 2001 or more recent estimates? - these things are never simple.— Rod ^talk 10:30, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

I suggest using this database for any list of urban areas by population - it's 9 years out of date, but is verifiably consistent in terms of the definitions used. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:41, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

But from that database would you use Bristol (420556) or Bristol Urban Area (551066)?— Rod ^talk 10:55, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Using the database above, I applied the rules I suggested to come up with the following list. To be honest I'm quite impressed - it doesn't seem to give any particular glaring errors to me. Note: I have included unitary areas within their respective ceremonial counties. I have also used Bristol in the strict city definition leaving its urban area (most notably South Gloucestershire) within their respective ceremonial counties. An asterisk means it is a city or county town (show for clarity, I'm not suggesting it should go into the final version.

• Bristol
• Cornwall: Truro*, Camborne, Redruth, Falmouth, St Austell, Penzance
• Devon: Exeter*, Plymouth*, Torquay, Paignton, Exmouth, Barnstaple, Newton Abbot
• Dorset: Dorchester*, Bournemouth, Poole, Weymouth, Christchurch, Ferndown
• Gloucs: Gloucester*, Cheltenham, Kingswood, Chipping Sodbury, Mangotsfield, Stroud, Cirencester
• Somerset: Taunton*, Wells*, Bath*, Weston-super-Mare, Yeovil, Bridgwater, Frome, Clevedon
• Wilts: Trowbridge*, Salisbury*, Swindon, Chippenham, Devizes, Melksham, Calne

What do you think? To me it is certainly better than the one that is in the article at the moment. --Simple Bob (talk) 11:25, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Bournemouth and Poole are not West Country towns. They are far removed from the actual West Country, both geographically and culturally. Their inclusion in Dorset is not synonymous with inclusion in the West Country - they have only been part of Dorset since the 80's, so it would be foolish to suggest that they are suddenly part of an informal region that is primarily defined by its cultural aspects rather than any real border.

As the article itself states, the border for the West Country is not defined and is in fact open to debate. I have seen no good evidence to suggest that Bournemouth and Poole is part of the West Country, so I have taken it upon myself to remove them from the "notable towns" section. I hope that the editors here are reasonable and do not revert this change.